Well, I appreciate those thoughts, Bege. I guess I'm "too close to the situation" to have your clarity of insight.

Thanks very muchly,

Dave

Well, considering the amount of time I spent testing it, I suppose that so do I. On the other hand, I think you produced a game that you would have wanted to play. I think that I tested and gave back input on the kind of game I wanted to play.

The end result, therefore, is something that came about not by chance or by irrational design, but by very careful and loving processes. In that sense, your insight is probably clearer than anyone elses, it's just that at the same time, what we like and what someone else likes can't always be the same.

OK, because I really should be working on my degree rather than posting on webboards... in reference to Pad of Heck's first post.

Firstly, I should point out that I'm somewhat biased when it comes to Nova... I love the game (let's face it, in the year before it was released I played it enough)... it's 'right' for me. Yes, it's not EV - it doesn't have the whole "rendered in ClarisWorks" feel (no offence to Matt) which is the feature I like most of EV, but ... I like it.

So, point by point:

Giving away the plot/Preambles
I'm sure that there's a warning somewhere that the preambles are spoilers. They provide a story and history to the game which neither of the predecessors did. I happen to think that it's actually rather nice, even if it does spoil the storyline some.
That said, I still found the whole discovery thing fascinating (try venturing off into the maze between Vellos and Wraith space, for example)... but that may be because there was a couple of months between proofing the preambles and getting my hands on b1.
Moral: if you don't want to spoil the plot, don't read the preambles.

Pace of the game
Le sigh
Firstly, I can complete entire mission strings in EV:O in a day... go play the Miranu string, for instance... I can do that in a couple of hours of play if I'm feeling bored.
Secondly, when you completed one of the major mission strings in EV/O, you had to start again. Sure, you can download 'Triple Agent' and play all three strands one after the other (so, cause and effect means what, exactly?), but once you've played the Igazra string and wanted to play something else... you had to trash your pilot file and start again.
Thirdly, it is entirely possible to go on playing the minor strings and empire building in Nova. Jump into the wormhole at the final system (whatever it's called - I forget), and off you go. Go cunjo hunting, terraform a planet... get mugged by drop-bears... build an empire, upgrade your ship to something powerful enough to destroy whole planets... it's all there.
Finally, you don't /have/ to do the whole running around building an empire at the start of each go. When I was beta testing and going through several strings, I'd copy my pilot file when I got my nicely upgraded WG Starbridge. Then off into the string... Oh, and it was exactly the same in Override.

Gameplay
Repeat after me: different races, different technologies. In EV, picking on an alien ship was generally considered to be a Bad Thing. Of course, you could then load your ship up with shields, armour and more shields... you'd still probably not be able to kill the alien ship, but it wouldn't leave you for dust.
Running blockades is surprisingly easy when you know how... I've completed the vellos string in stock ships - the shuttle you get when you start, and then the vellos 'ships' you get as you play. This includes running the Auroran blockade. It takes a variant on the monty-python maneovre, but it's doable.
While I mention monty-python, the Nova scenario tried to disallow it which, in my book, makes for somewhat better fights.

As for ship speeds and whatever ... Firebirds are damn fast, as are Phoenixes. The lightning used to be fast, but it was made slower during the beta process (iirc). The idea was that it was made more realistic - that ships handled more as they would in 'real' physics, rather than being able to turn on a dime.
Concerning the ability to outrun missiles - it made EV and Override way too easy. In Nova, it seems the weapons makers have realised that if they want people to buy their stuff, they have to make it fast enough to hit things. In real life, the fastest plane out there does about mach 3, straight down. Missiles do mach 4 or 5, because you want them to be able to hit planes... this is an improvement as far as I'm concerned.
As for small ships = fast, large ships = slow. What's your problem with that?

Oh, and remember that a ships handling improves with your experience...

Plot
Yes, Nova's plot is more 'involved' than any of the others, because it had some damn good writers behind it. I'll fully accept that the "interactive novel" feel may not be to everyone's tastes, but I like it. If you want cheesy "let's blow s### up", play EV or Override... or do the bounty hunter missions in Nova. If you want well-written storylines - which can get boring (especially after the n th time of playing) - play Nova.
Then again, I liked Frozen Heart as well...

--

Anyways, if you want EV/O-style gaming within the Nova engine, I believe that there are some neat little TCs out there which do precisely that. I did hear of someone producing a proper port with re-rendered graphics to take advantage of the fun bits in Nova's engine... but I've been out of the loop way too long to know what happened to it.
Otherwise, if you do want to create this plug/TC... good luck.

Best,

-jdp
Nova beta team

I beat you to it! I beat you to it! Aha ha ha!

Damn you, Bege... for saying what I wanted to say, in better language, and quicker than I could.

Bege++

Jon Pearse, on Feb 3 2005, 02:04 AM, said:

Damn you, Bege... for saying what I wanted to say, in better language, and quicker than I could.

Bege++
View Post

Dangit, I didn't see that when I posted what I said.

And nonsense... yep, we said much the same things. But hey, that's because we were both there, right? And what is more, you hit on points, and thoughts, that I only hinted at, or never formulated.

When it comes to things we are thinking and feeling, they can't be covered enough. You're eloquent as always, my friend.

You guys rock. I mean, seriously. You remind me why I worked on the game in the first place. Teary eyed here, boys.

Dave

OK, to pull away from that little tangent I will answer Dave's question:

I have never completed a game. There, you win 1-0.

Now, I can say I have a game in the 'pipeline', which I am developing on the coldstone platform. I'm an advanced coldstone user, and I'm working on a long term project. Don't bother to look for my project in the coldstone boards I don't even read them.

I also have a decent experience of using resedit to alter EVO. Before ever logging on to the ambrosia website, I used resedit to tinker with EVO, and in doing so made several little game mods. I later found out that there was a program called 'ev edit' you could download which saved you having to logically guess which codes meant what from res edit. However, after seeing other huge TC projects for EVO, and hearing about EVN I was never inspired to start an ambitious plug in.

My idea here sounds ambitious. Actually in the long run it could be more ambitious than I've stated so far, but I do not wish to speculate until I have progress under my belt. As I indicated, I have broken up my develop process into smaller projects.. the first being to balance ships speeds into an EVO-style play context. If I finish this, I can then think about the next stage, and so on.

Pad of Heck, on Feb 3 2005, 10:06 PM, said:

OK, to pull away from that little tangent I will answer Dave's question:

I have never completed a game. There, you win 1-0.View Post

It's not about winning, it's about how you play the game.

I would like to make one more comment, replying to Dave, Begetomike and Jon Pearse.

Firstly: Dave, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your project. I'm not undermining your work (at least I didn't mean too). I'll admit I could have taken a different angle to this topic. The fact is, as we know, the majority of players think EVN is the greatest work of the series, and in some ways I would agree with them. In the end it comes down to taste. I'm comparing EVN to a game (EVO) which is consider to be my favourite game, and in my opinion it's the best game I've ever played. Along with a few other die-hard EVO fans I guess I want to make an EVN that could have been, which would have been more like EVO. EVN is a completely different game, and preferences come down to taste.

To Begetomike and Jon Pearse: Defending EVN isn't going to change my mind about it, and EVN really doesn't need defending anyway. All the critiques I've written are true (apart from the parts that are purely opinion, such as my dislike of the plot style), however, to some people these things arent necessarily bad. They aren't even 'bad' to me per se, they just arent EVO-like enough. I'm completely biased. In the same way I won't pick apart your counter-comment of my critique, as it's a waste of my time, and won't change your mind either.

In conclusion: I'm not trying to 'correct' EVN. I just want to make an EVO-like game using the resources of EVN. After all, EVNs game engine has so many improvements.

Little progress update:
*Started tinkering with the fighters and small vessels.
I've realised that the main thing slowing the fighters down is accel. 'speed' isn't the biggest issue, the fighters become a lot more responsive when you more or less triple their accel values.
*I dropped the speed of most of the missile weapons, and the range of certain guns. This seems to work quite nicely.
*Wondering whether I could tinker with the AI file and get fighters to do fly-bys like in EVO.
*Ideas for new galaxy going well.

I'm glad EVN isn't like EVO. I never liked it -- the ship graphics looked like Fisher-Price toys, and the storylines never engaged me enough to bother finishing any of them. I think the only thing I liked out of it was the "initial discovery of and establishing trade relations with the Miranu" mini-thread.

I registered EV as soon as my month's worth of demoing ended. I registered EVN the day it was released. I never bothered registering EVO, and I've never bothered playing the EVO TC for EVN.

So you're basically doing a TC, but using all the graphics already existing in EVN? What will make this one stand out amongst the other TCs also in development that have all new graphics? I'm sure they don't all have the same sense of "balance" as the existing scenario - you might find one that has the feel you're looking for. I think you'd be better off updating the EVO TC with all the Nova features, or maybe writing a sequel to it. I don't think many people would be interested in a TC with no new graphics unless there was something else really compelling about it.

Assuming I'd managed to create a TC of the game and had changed everything but the graphics I would then consider adding extra graphics. Until I'm st that stage there is no point bothering to invest time in it.

Pad of Heck, on Feb 1 2005, 07:41 PM, said:

-Plot: Yup I hate the plot... snipView Post

I dislike some of the Nova mission strings for the reasons you outline. Too much transporting, too few challenging battles!

Of course, we'd probably be crying 'foul' if there was something like the Voinian Dreadnought in Nova... but that was a hell of a satisfying fight.

The thing that I dislike is the inconsistencies of plot between the different strings. In one string, the rebellion is presented as a viable opposition; in another they're victim's of Frandall's manipulations. Several different sides keep prisoners on a ship called the 'Desperation', and so on... why all the recycling?

I think the lasting appeal of Override is that its mission strings could be mixed and matched. Exploring the nebulae is fixed, but you can choose the order you attempt the strings in, choose your strand, and choose sides in the Voinian War, for a total of 36 different combinations. (Six mission string combinations and six different sequences). Nova seems much more... linear. Especially since a novice is often drawn into a major plotline without realising just what choices it closes off, later in the game.

Having said that, I still enjoyed Nova hugely. I just wish there was more, more... I've played EV:O to death , and I don't think a return to 'O' is the answer to this particular Weltschmerz.

All this talk about things not being good enough and living up to your own criticism reminds me of the tweaked EVC me and ToLazyToMakeAnAccount are doing. He thought the EVC TC for Nova didn't really feel like the actual original EV. So what did he do? He started tweaking it himself. So far, he's imported all the ship graphics from the Magma high-detail plug from the original EV, has started making new weapons and outfits to spice things up, and is working on many other parts of it. I've voulenteered (SP?) to be in charge of further graphical components (for those who have any experience with that, see my request for assistance in Just Graphics and see if you can help me out).
On a final note, no game is perfect. For a game made by a small group working on a (I'm guessing) low budget, Nova came out extremely well.

VoinianAmbassador, on Feb 21 2005, 03:14 PM, said:

Of course, we'd probably be crying 'foul' if there was something like the Voinian Dreadnought in Nova... but that was a hell of a satisfying fight.
View Post

What about the battle with the Raven at the end of the Fed string?

Jon Pearse said:

As for ship speeds and whatever ... Firebirds are damn fast, as are Phoenixes.

I always found that they just didn't have enough firepower to do much to the bigger ships.

I feel a need to add my own ideas for how to improve Nova through plug-ins.
Systems - Put some empty planets between Polaris and Federation space. To me it is far too easy to find them despite the Polaris being a mysterious race.
Place more systems between Sol and Auroran space. I was always so confused as to why the Aurorans didn't just jump a fleet straight to Sol, it's only two jumps if launched just south of Tichel.
All the empty planets north of Fed space are pointless. There is no reason or reward for exploring them. Now if they were between Fed and Polaris or Vell-os space, then they would be interesting.
Move the Feds west and place the empty systems between the Feds, Vell-os and Polaris.

Gameplay - I found the Polaris to be too narrow in their abilities. A manta could decimate Fed fleets in the hands of a moderately skilled player. Yet despite its description, a Scarab (and especially Raven) could be overwhelmed by other capital ships. The lack of point defense makes them really vulnerable to missiles and fighters. I think the Scarab should be able to take on several Fed Destroyers and a couple Carriers too with only moderate difficulty. But to compensate there should be missions in which the player must use that power. Maybe include a mission where a Scarab is pitted against a fleet of Fed Destroyers which are fast enough that the Scarab cannot just run away to recharge, it must find a way to cripple the fleet long enough to escape.
One thing I really like is how the ships are so customizable. Few things match the joy of getting attacked by Pirates in your defenseless Leviathan, then launching a few Thunderheads. Or even better, a cloak or Turreted Biorelay Laser.

Plot - Ory'hara gained power far too quickly early on. But then at the end his ability to merge with the universe didn't help the sluggish Javelin avoid or survive the power of dozens of railguns.

Please do not interpret this as a bash on Nova. Overall it is a great game and I still recall fondly the first time I played it and realized that I could sell escorts (Manticores are great for this, so helpless yet expensive).

Mispeled, on Feb 21 2005, 08:22 PM, said:

What about the battle with the Raven at the end of the Fed string?

personally it took me about 8 seconds to dispose of the raven (with no escorts). Dreadnought took about 20 minutes at least.

to Voinian Ambassador.. I take your point about not making another 'O'.. I've played EVO to death too.. I actually have a number of new ideas.. I just want to make the gameplay, feel of the game more similar.

Yes I'm still working on this project, and I've acquired someone to help me out as well.. Still I could do with other input.. please post a wishlist of ideas you'd like to see in a TC game here!!

To Klepsacovic thanks a lot for your input that is very helpful. I agree with ALL of your points there! However, I'm not really going to use the factions "federation, polaris, vell-os etc", although your points are still helpful because they can be applied as a rule in a general sense eg leaving space between factions could apply to any game etc.

This post has been edited by Pad of Heck : 04 March 2005 - 06:15 AM