Over the years, I have seen perhaps a majority of the fans of the EV series who declare that the story is more important than graphics. There is a somewhat smaller number of people who believe that the 2 are equally important. And then there are those honest few who believe that the latter is more important than the former.

Though personally I identify with the first group, I am still going to get Homeworld 2, despite its absolutely worthless story. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the ATMOS team can come up with a better story in an hour than what the people who made Homeworld eventually came up with. Of all the discussions of Homeworld I have seen on the Internet, practically nothing is devoted to its story.

The interesting thing about Martin Turner's Frozen Heart is that years after it was released, there were still people who asked about the final choice made in Femme Fatale. There were still people who want to know whether Alana would get together with Lars.

In contrast, Bomb's Reign of the Voinians provided very good entertainment but I have yet to see any serious discussion of its plot. AnubisTTP's Polycon plug is obviously another very entertaining plug-in. But though I have seen countless questions about how and where to get the best weapons, I haven't seen any serious discussions about the plot itself.

I have seen countless threads here talking about how to make a certain kind of outfit work or people asking about the best graphics software.

But where are the questions about what kind of a story appeals to people? Where are the questions about how people get their inspiration for their stories?

What about realism? How much realism should a story contain? (Sadly, "realism" cannot be measured with a ruler or in megabytes.) I still remember the early part of Frozen Heart where the player takes a mission to Rigel and is obligated to remember a specific code word. How much treachery, deception, betrayal,... should a story contain?

I'd really like to see a discussion started about whether there are certain fundamental principles that underpin memorable stories and separate them from mediocre ones.

Personally, I think the reason why the art of crafting stories is not much discussed here is because it is very difficult to come up with any hard rules. I have seen plenty of literary critics puzzled over why a book like Harriet Tubman's Uncle Tom's Cabin was so influential when, in their enlightened opinion, it was second-rate, at best. There is no shortage of such puzzlement over everything from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment to Cervantes's Don Quixote. Yet these are the books that have withstood the test of time (perhaps the only objective test for a story) and usually, the books of the critics are the ones forgotten after a month.

How many TCs and extension plug-ins for EV/O have been released? Why is it that Frozen Heart is remembered better than most?

Shakespeare's plays are still being staged and frequently move onto the big screen. As gifted as writers like Tom Clancy, Michael Crichton, and John Grisham may be, how many people seriously believe that Jurassic Park will be taught in schools 3 centuries from now?

Who among us will have the courage to declare to the rest of us that he is currently at work on (or already has completed) a story for his plug-in that will be remembered for a very long time? What secret ingredients did that person use? Can he actually deliver on his promise?

At the very least, how many of us have stories as long and involved as Frozen Heart?

------------------
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Quote

Originally posted by htjyang:
**< thought provoking snip>
**

Hey, you're back. You haven't been around for almost a year, right? Kudos for posting this instead of posting, "I've come back, anyone I know still around?"

Story definitely trumps graphics. If all you want is the most amazing, most realistic graphics you can get, then you should be outside, enjoying the real world, it's already got very nice visuals. Graphics should simply be used to draw the player more into the story, and to do that, they don't need to be the best 3D images software can make.

What does make the difference between a good and a classic story is a hard question to answer. Certainly, a story can easily be annoyingly melodramatic or cheesy, the style and technique of these stories is what can make them so bad. But figuring out what makes a good story, and how to write in such a way to make an enjoyable and memorable story is difficult, it all has to do with detail and how the writer presents the story to the reader.

You mentioned realism, and I feel that aspect of a story can be a large factor in how good a story is. In stories with dialogue especially, realism is key. If you can't describe a conversation realisticly, if your dialogue sounds nothing like how people really talk, then your dialogue won't sound good. It will sound fake, unrealistic, and will be distracting to a reader.

I too wouldn't mind a discussion on writing, and what factors make a good story, as well as how to incorporate some of those factors into your writing. Not every developer here simply makes new weapons and ships, so there are certainly some of us who would have things to add to the conversation. I suppose these things are sometimes discussed in the chronicles section, but I wouldn't know, since I don't go to that forum.

Other thoughts on what's important to a good story? Anyone?

------------------
A wise man is one who knows when he is being a fool.
Play Marathon again! (url="http://"http://source.bungie.org/")Aleph One.(/url)

(This message has been edited by WraithSniper (edited 07-10-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by htjyang:
**

The interesting thing about Martin Turner's Frozen Heart is that years after it was released, there were still people who asked about the final choice made in Femme Fatale. There were still people who want to know whether Alana would get together with Lars.

**

**
The thing is, FH has succeeded because it balances both so well... excellent graphics and uncanny storytelling. Also, it is written in the vein of EVN (or vice versa, depending on the point of view..) and by that I mean it is a far cry from the relatively simplistic storytelling of EVO. It can only do this because it stands alone- if there was romance and epic adventures in an EVO expander, it simply wouldn't read write at all.. It would stand out immensely.
**

Quote

**
In contrast, Bomb's Reign of the Voinians provided very good entertainment but I have yet to see any serious discussion of its plot. AnubisTTP's Polycon plug is obviously another very entertaining plug-in. But though I have seen countless questions about how and where to get the best weapons, I haven't seen any serious discussions about the plot itself.

**

**
That's probably because the plot of RotV is relatively simple, and purposefully so. I was trying to emulate Peter Cartwright's method of storytelling- blank faced characters that deliver the pilot from one mission to the next. There are no dynamic elements in the delivery of its plot because I wanted RotV to feel as though it could have shipped with the game itself and not have the player notice the difference.

A fundamental flaw, perhaps. But that is part of the game of making expander plug-ins. If you play RotV II you'll notice that because I added onto the game so much, I began to more freely write in my own style- by the time the player has finished off the UEs, you know you're no longer playing the stock scenario. (in which conquering two space stations is considered immense progress)**

Quote

**
I have seen countless threads here talking about how to make a certain kind of outfit work or people asking about the best graphics software.

But where are the questions about what kind of a story appeals to people? Where are the questions about how people get their inspiration for their stories?

What about realism? How much realism should a story contain? (Sadly, "realism" cannot be measured with a ruler or in megabytes.) I still remember the early part of Frozen Heart where the player takes a mission to Rigel and is obligated to remember a specific code word. How much treachery, deception, betrayal,... should a story contain?

I'd really like to see a discussion started about whether there are certain fundamental principles that underpin memorable stories and separate them from mediocre ones.

Personally, I think the reason why the art of crafting stories is not much discussed here is because it is very difficult to come up with any hard rules. I have seen plenty of literary critics puzzled over why a book like Harriet Tubman's Uncle Tom's Cabin was so influential when, in their enlightened opinion, it was second-rate, at best. There is no shortage of such puzzlement over everything from Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment to Cervantes's Don Quixote. Yet these are the books that have withstood the test of time (perhaps the only objective test for a story) and usually, the books of the critics are the ones forgotten after a month.

**

**
I agree- there certainly should be more discussion of the subject. However, when it comes to storytelling, as you said, there is no definition of what is "good" or "bad." It's all up to the player. Some people have come on here and bashed FH as dumb or preachy or whatever, whereas the majority of players consider it the defining plug-in for EVO.

It's like trying to argue about what kind of fruit tastes better. What might be great for one person might not be for another. Still, it's something worth discussing, in my view.

**

Quote

**
How many TCs and extension plug-ins for EV/O have been released? Why is it that Frozen Heart is remembered better than most?

Shakespeare's plays are still being staged and frequently move onto the big screen. As gifted as writers like Tom Clancy, Michael Crichton, and John Grisham may be, how many people seriously believe that Jurassic Park will be taught in schools 3 centuries from now?

Who among us will have the courage to declare to the rest of us that he is currently at work on (or already has completed) a story for his plug-in that will be remembered for a very long time? What secret ingredients did that person use? Can he actually deliver on his promise?

At the very least, how many of us have stories as long and involved as Frozen Heart?

**

**Again, a good discussion to have, but I'd venture to say its fairly egotistical of anyone here to say that his or her work will be remembered for a long time. Remember, the vast majority of masters across any number of fields was never truly appreciated in their time. Therefore, long term success can best and only be measured in just that, the long term.

_bomb

**

(This message has been edited by Bomb (edited 07-11-2004).)

htjyang is back! Run away! (by the way, he has only left us several months)
What's next, forge's return with another (gasp) moniker?

About the matter at hand, see where I come from. Intantly deduce that though I could write stories, I can't write something good-looking in English, nor can I really appreciate good English writing. Consequence: why bother for me dicussing it? Still, I appreciate a good scenario.

------------------
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I agree that the story is more important than the graphics, if it's not, whats the point of even having a story. But that said, I also understand that for many, a certain level of visual beuaty is required to get into the story. And come on, can anyone honestly say that the fact that a game has great graphics doen't make it slightly more interesting?
I'm sorry to say I never got into EV:O, so I don't know Frozen heart at all. But a good story is what really brings you into a game.For example, in Brotherhood of the Kestrel, an TC EV plugin, I was playing through one of the story lines, and over the course of the game, began to really get attached to one of the charecters, who happened to be the main contact. Now for story reasons (which I won't revel, as i think you should download the plug and find them out for yourself) you were later forced to fight, and kill him. But when the mission was over, a diffrent story was told. You had diabled him, but an explosive planted on him by his employer, as a way to prevent an alliance between the two of us. I was personally moved by hloy rage and vengence, and qucikly compleated the remainder of the plot, in which you destroy thoses who killed you best friend and hunted you across the universe. The death of this man actually angered me so much that when I found the guy who had killed him, I actually started screaming obcenities at the screen. I think this is and example of how the best way to write a story is to forge bonds with charecters, as they are the best driving factor. If you create charechters who people can get attcahed to, or sympithize with, or look up to, than you have the means to create a riviting and intriuging story.

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The victorius military is first victorius and then does battle, the defeted military first does battle, and the seeks victory. -Sun Tzu "the art of war"

I've recently written something about this and I its in another thread but I'll repost it here anway.

People think that the only way they can make something other people would consider decent is to make a TC , or have fancy new graphics. No , all of these things should be added value and not become the center as indeed is the case with many commerical products.

We need to go back to the core of EV development and that is a compelling storyline and intresting use of basic features. We don't need new graphics all the time , or why on earth would we need all those advanced features like binary counters, while these are nice examples of how far you can push the engine they are rarely used in projects.

We need YOU(I'm talking to all developers or people who want to start) to come forward with that nice story you've had in your mind for so long. Write the story and then use the available tools make a decent plug , something that uses the features nova offers , but not something that uses all sorts of tricks or new graphics etc... .

People have forgotten that EV is a community game , and a community does not build upon fancy features , instead it builds upon stories , tales that people tell.

EVN was for me all about the story , it sucked me in , if EVN was a plug for EV/O without all the advanced features or great graphics it would have been just as good.

All we need is a little less ambition to create the next big thing and a little more creative idea's , so turn of your computer now , place yourself in a comfy chair and start writing your story.

Then try to make it in a plug-in to the best of your abilities , but if your plug-in has no new graphics or does not use binary counters , its alright , I'll play it , because you'll provide me with a tale , a story to read and something to play , not only to look at, something that keeps me playing , graphics are nice but the "wow" effect fades after a few hours. Instead a compelling story can keep your eyes glued to the screen till late at night.

Everyone needs to lower their bar a bit and look at what Nova is and always will be , its a game born of the community and that is where it belongs.

It does not belong next to all the fancy new 3D titles , no Nova has a special place on my bench.

If everyone were to lower their standards abit and don't expect Nova (and mainly Nova plugs) to be what it isn't , I'm sure we would see many more plugs and see things come to live again. Just like It was back in April 2002.

Also because there are many people with great idea's on their minds but if you place the bar too high they will never come forward and I consider that a loss.

Don't wait for anything to happen because it won't , just find something you wanted to do and do it.

And if you tried but the result isn't very good yet , that is fine , at least you had what it takes to come forward with your idea and do it.

EV development is not very hard , you just need to do it , and if you don't do it right the first time that's fine , because nobody does , just keep trying , ask for advice and your plugin will be what you wanted it to be.

Do or do not , there is no try.

I thank your for your attention.

All the best,

Entarus,

------------------
"Don't wait for your life to happen , find something you are happy with and do it"
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I agree that the story is more important than the graphics, if it's not, whats the point of even having a story. But that said, I also understand that for many, a certain level of visual beuaty is required to get into the story. And come on, can anyone honestly say that the fact that a game has great graphics doen't make it slightly more interesting?
I'm sorry to say I never got into EV:O, so I don't know Frozen heart at all. But a good story is what really brings you into a game.For example, in Brotherhood of the Kestrel, an TC EV plugin, I was playing through one of the story lines, and over the course of the game, began to really get attached to one of the charecters, who happened to be the main contact. Now for story reasons (which I won't revel, as i think you should download the plug and find them out for yourself) you were later forced to fight, and kill him. But when the mission was over, a diffrent story was told. You had diabled him, but an explosive planted on him by his employer, as a way to prevent an alliance between the two of us. I was personally moved by hloy rage and vengence, and qucikly compleated the remainder of the plot, in which you destroy thoses who killed you best friend and hunted you across the universe. The death of this man actually angered me so much that when I found the guy who had killed him, I actually started screaming obcenities at the screen. I think this is and example of how the best way to write a story is to forge bonds with charecters, as they are the best driving factor. If you create charechters who people can get attcahed to, or sympithize with, or look up to, than you have the means to create a riviting and intriuging story.

------------------
The victorius military is first victorius and then does battle, the defeted military first does battle, and the seeks victory. -Sun Tzu "the art of war"

I strongly agree that the storyline is probably the most important part of a game. I have dësc resources in my TC that are 7k (and that's a DumpCargoText!) by themselves. But unfortunately having plot be the main concern it really opens itself up to writers' block. If anyone knows a way around this, please let me know.

------------------
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I have to say that I agree on all points, or at leas almost all points, that were mentioned here. To me a game without any story at all is a dull bore. And a game with a cruddy story is a "land in the trash after two seconds of play" game. Perhaps that is why arcade style games don't often appeal to me.

The Marathon trillogy, and several scinarios for it, are crown examples of how important a story is. I still play, and enjoy, Marathon 1, Its plot drags me in every time.

------------------
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I, personally, have been having a lot of trouble with my story. For one, I'm having difficulty because I have perhaps been trying to do too much with it. How? Well, the style of graphics that I'm using (I can assure you, they are nothing but unique as far as EV plug-ins go) don't lend themselves to being extremely serious. I can just imagine someone, who was saddened when such-and-such died, takes off from the planet they were on and then laughs their head off. Of course, this might be an overreaction, but you get the idea.

So, I actually think that a story and the graphics must complement each other. If you have to use stock graphics to do it, then do so. If you have a plot filled with intrigue, but you're not that good with modelling, then trying to model might actually ruin some of the effect you're getting. A dark, realistic plot needs dark, realistic graphics. A zany, wacky plot does better with zany, wacky graphics, in which case whatever modelling abilities you have would probably be good enough.

In my case, specifically, my graphics are too arcade-like to really lend themselves to a completely zany plot or a serious one. They kinda promote the EV classic type of plot, with a touch of zaniness and seriousness, I think.

Anyways, in summary, the graphics are important to storytelling, and are just as much an element of the story as the story itself. If you fly around in a jack-in-the-box, would anyone do anything but laugh if you revealed that the main villian was your father (or at least your second uncle twice removed)?

Just my two cents. Well, maybe three. That took awhile to type out.

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Quote

I have seen countless threads here talking about how to make a certain kind of outfit work or people asking about the best graphics software.

But where are the questions about what kind of a story appeals to people? Where are the questions about how people get their inspiration for their stories?

I tend to think that many developers don't want to let too much out of the bag before they release their plug-in. Discussions about dealing with the game engine as a tool really don't give much away, where posting passages from your missions might. There have been a few threads in recent months about creativity techniques and the 'nature' of plug-in development that were constructive, if not a bit volatile. They happen, but not too often.

Quote

What about realism? How much realism should a story contain?

Just enough to make it playable. If I want reality, I'll go visit my parents.

I'm going to say that gameplay and overall scenario structure trump storyline. Sure, having a great story is nice. But I'm not looking to play/create a video book. I want to make a video game. Someone could write the greatest story ever told, and their plug-in could still suck. I think this is why Frozen Heart was so successful, it was well balanced. Good story + innovative gameplay = Great Plug-in.

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I watched the Harrison Ford film 'Presumed Innocent' last night. The BBC review of it pointed out that, although all the ingredients were there, it somehow didn't make it into the territory of a great movie.
Having watched it, I had to agree - it was more like a rather weak TV series. On the other hand, 'the Fugitive' is one of my all time favourite films which I have watched a dozen times.

What's the difference? If we really knew we'd bottle it and sell it.

I only vaguely remember what it was like to write Frozen Heart. I started off trying to implement my story as a way of writing the next one - I thought somehow if I constructed an EV set of planets it would be a lot easier to hold together my creative universe and get all of the timings etc right. At a particular moment, though, the plugin reached the point where I wanted it to be playable in its own right. As there's no way of doing flashbacks in EV, that meant having to create the back story. I also needed the player to be in a certain state of mind by the time they got to the main story. There had to be a growing sense of outrage at injustice, plus some kind of genuine compassion for the victims.

I do remember, though, that at some point the story suddenly came alive for me. As the writer I was suddenly interested in what was going to happen next. Somehow it had gathered enough critical mass in my mind for me to really care. The culmination was originally supposed to be the written story. But the romance with Katherine Baxter took over, and so the culmination became the fight for New Venus. I actually cried when I wrote that part.

I've now played through FH about twenty times, and it still works for me. In a sense this doesn't surprise me, as I wrote it for myself. All the characters were based on real people that I knew, and, in a sense, all of the human part of the story was based on situations I had experienced. What always has surprised me is that it ever worked for anybody else.

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M A R T I N • T U R N E R
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Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
** <snip>
What always has surprised me is that it ever worked for anybody else.
<snip>

**

Obviously, you cared about the story. That type of care shows through. It's when people care, when people put all their feeling into something that others notice the most. I know it sounds corny, but the more you care about something, the better job you'll do at it for all (or sometimes, yourself) to see.

Heh. Your description of how you wrote the story makes me feel very small...

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You raise an interesting point. But one thing developers that want to implement a complex storyline in a game should mind is that computer games are a media different from books, theatre or movies.

No matter how well developped your story is, you should remember that the end-users of the product you're developing are players , not readers or spectators. You should avoid boring the player by involving him into the action, rather than just showing him a story which he has next to no control on. An excellent example of this is Deus Ex (the original one): the makers managed to tell a coherent story, while letting the players make important choices.

Involving the player can sometimes be very difficult, because it involves a lot more work and programming (meaning defining how the environment and story reacts to the player's actions), especially in a game like EV.

In any case I feel the background story in a game should be closely relevant to what the player does. In no situation should the player feel like he is just an insignificant part of a gigantic universe, or the mere spectator of a dramatic scene. This is why I think extremely long descriptions (dëscs) or cinematics should be avoided: think of the Warcraft III cinematics. They were superb, from an artistic point of view, but I really felt they had very little to do with the actual game.

EV plug-in developers should be particularly careful about their descriptions; few people are willing to read an entire novel every time they land on a planet. Thus the writing style must be adapted to the type of game: it should be clear and precise. The drama must come from powerful, signicant actions and words from a few key characters in the storyline, not from overly descriptions of their psychology and states of mind.

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Mm, maybe.

Have you never played Sinkha? This was a fantastic interactive novel. Or Myst (made in Stratavision)? Myst was a world to explore as much as it was a game. Likewise, Tomb Raider doesn't really allow you to make any decisions for yourself - you have to solve the puzzles, avoid the traps and defeat the monsters, but there is basically only one way to play through the game. On the other hand, Sim City or the Sims which allow you to make absolutely all the decisions yourself have a very different appeal from the EV / Elite style game.

With EV you can opt in and out of storylines, and you can swap from one storyline to another, but the engine isn't really fitted up for true decision making. A really optimised plugin is one where the player ends up playing everything the writer wrote - in fact, a lot of the threads about most of the EV games have been about how to get the other threads that a player hasn't played yet. The problem is, if you try to create a plugin with a true decision tree, then you need to write hundreds of times more storyline than the player will ever get to play.

There have been a fair few people who have proposed writing true decision-tree plugins. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, I think this was talked about at an early stage for Nova. I've never actually saw one released, though.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you have to keep giving the player short term decisions to make, but combine them in such a way that they still progress through the story line.

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M A R T I N • T U R N E R
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It is possible to let the player make a lot more choices in EV than it is usual in plug-ins, while keeping the player in one plotline. Let me cite Deus Ex as an example again. There was clearly a single storyline (apart from JC Denton's final choice in the last mission, which could lead to 3 different endings), but the player's actions did actually have an impact on the storyline, without changing the course of actions dramatically. For example, you could choose to join the NSF rebels as soon as you were told about the UNATCO's corruption, or choose to stay loyal - you'd eventually join the rebels a mission or two later.

Small choices could also modify the environment (outfits available, governments, planets, availability of subplots) rather than the storyline itself. Such tiny details, as they are multiplied and combined with player-centric storytelling (eventual use of b{}), really add to a plug-in, by making the universe more interactive. They do not require the kind of complex branching you describe.

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You know, as I was reading Martin Turner's post, I thought of all these topics, and all the TCs, plug-ins, etc. that are out, for the EV games, and I thought "man, Matt Burch must be proud".

Back on topic, should I ever make the TC I wrote the backstory for for fun, it would have a true decision tree.

To go deeper into the matter: The story is what keeps the player...playing. While good graphics are nice, I wouldn't care if the graphics were made by Disney/Pixar, or if they were badly textured cubes, spheres, and cylinders; if the gameplay was good enough, I wouldn't be bothered. The graphics could easily be fixed anyway. But an intriguing, well-written story could keep me up all night playing it. However, there's a fine line between well-written stories and stories that suck the player in. As good a writer as someone can be, unless the story matches, it's a waste. I'm sure all of us have watched a movie or read a book that caused us to have strong emotions. I can honestly say that I've cried reading books where important people die. It's that kind of attachment to the people, that kind of emotion-invoking, that keeps the player's eyes glued to the screen until their eyes burn just from looking away from the screen. But a good story isn't enough. High-rated RPGs like Final Fantasy VII and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time had a good story, but if the gameplay sucked, would you play it? Probably not. And vice versa, too. If the gameplay is good but the story sucks, it's just as bad. Good graphics are a plus, but to me, that's just the sprinkles on the cake (not even the icing). The ideal combination would be good graphics, good story, and good gameplay, which anyone could appreciate (assuming they appreciate good work), whereas, on the opposite side of the spectrum, bad gameplay, bad graphics, and a bad story, basically everyone would hate it. Different combinations would, of course, attract some and repel others; Reign of the UE is regarded as a great plug-in by many, but to me, it's crap. It basically combines bad gameplay, an okay story, and okay graphics.

To return to just the story, there are many defining elements in a good story, some that can be understood by many, and others which are abstract and require a creative mind to comprehend, though not necessarily to appreciate. For instance, you should avoid using formula or template plots or clichéd ideas—unless you can find a new way of presenting it. Knowing to avoid using templates/formulas would be a no-brainer, while knowing how to present a stale idea in a fresh way requires creativity, but the receivers can appreciate it without realizing that. But, an important thing to remember: writing a good story can't be broken down into a bunch of rules to follow which will make it possible to easily write a good story. Rather, a good story has few, if any, true rules. Pitch the rules, and write how you want. Let your imagination go wild. Have fun, the story is basically the only place you can when making a plug-in.

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(This message has been edited by orcaloverbri9 (edited 07-17-2004).)

In any case I feel the background story in a game should be closely relevant to what the
player does. In no situation should the player feel like he is just an insignificant
part of a gigantic universe, or the mere spectator of a dramatic scene. This is why I
think extremely long descriptions (dëscs) or cinematics should be avoided: think of the
Warcraft III cinematics. They were superb, from an artistic point of view, but I really
felt they had very little to do with the actual game.

EV plug-in developers should be particularly careful about their descriptions; few
people are willing to read an entire novel every time they land on a planet. Thus
the writing style must be adapted to the type of game: it should be clear and precise.
The drama must come from powerful, signicant actions and words from a few key
characters in the storyline, not from overly descriptions of their psychology and
states of mind.

It's almost a danger in some ways then, having a strong story. If you take the time to think out a really strong story, it's almost impossible in my experience to avoid having long dëscs. Some of mine rank in the 300's, like the vast magority of outfit descriptors, but almost every landing desc maxes out, and many of my planets have a silent mďsn that fires the first time that you land on them that adds even more detail. On the level of missions, my main mission string number one of three has average dësc resources in the 3000-4000 character range. Right now I max out at 7796, for a DropCargoText. This is a direct concequence of having a strong story- I've thought out these characters and what they are doing and where they are going to no end and when I sit down to write, I write.

I'll quote an appropriate saying by Joel Hodgeston (spelling inaccurate I think on the last name), the creator of MST3000: "It's not so important that everyone 'gets it', it's important that the right people get it." That's how I feel about large dësc resources. If a lot of people don't like it, they won't bother playing my TC because it takes at least a high school reading level and enough patence to read. But if you do like a 'strong story', how could long dëscs be a bad thing? It's not like we're throwing out eye candy here- every word is signifigant and if you don't pay attention you're going to miss something important.

I didn't mean to toot my own horn here. I've not played a lot of other plugins and what I have dled I mostly pulled apart with ResEdit to see how they worked. So I am probably noone to talk.

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What's wrong with long descs? I use everything I can to try to get more descs in — including always using the cargo pick up and drop off texts even when there isn't any physical cargo. I never heard anybody complain that my descs were too long, although I have heard people complain about pretty much everything else I did.

I feel it's very important not to try to define a gold standard and say 'all plugins do the following'. A while back someone (forget who) was trying to write a guide book for plugins that more or less specified exactly what you had to do and how to do it. The funny thing was, he had never actually released a plugin so nobody could possibly know if his method worked or not. A lot of people got quite excited about the project, though.

But how can there be a recommended desc length when everybody writes differently? I always write too much and go back and weed out words. For me, I find this the best way to get tight text. I know that there are people who write very sparsely and who go back and inject colour, taste, sensation etc. Isaac Asimov's early stories and novels, especially the Foundation Trilogy, are incredibly sparse with almost no sensory description. By contrast, his later works are much longer with far more detailed description. The funny thing is, I still find Foundation rivetting, whereas I find the later stuff almost unreadable.

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This is somewhat related to the task at hand, so I thought I might bring it up.

As I write the main string for Retribution, there are certain times during which action happens upon the ground. For example, near the beginning of the story, the player returns to his homeworld to become a manager of a (url="http://"http://www.bacchusfreeware.com/retribution/ashworld.jpg")factory-tower(/url) amidst the slums, and as such the descs assume that the player spends long periods of time upon the ground, only taking to space when necessary. Accordingly, the descs for those missions are rather long, narrating what happens while the player is surface-side. These are relatively rare, but they are still present.

Do you think that would pose a problem, given that some of them are the equivalent two or more full single-spaced pages written in 12-point Times New Roman? I know that there are people who'll just click through the texts in order to get to the gameplay, and for them I've put in concise short mission summaries that should allow the player to at least go through the storyline, but will people who actually want to appreciate the plot actually go to the trouble of reading descs of that length?

And are situations like this even warranted? I know that some people will say 'EVN is a space-oriented game, so keep it that way', but I personally feel that having your setting take place only briefly on planetside each time you disembark or on stations limits your options. Are all captains really going to live their whole lives in space? I think that going planetside for extended periods of time would at least be a viable option, and I've tried to reflect that in my writing.

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 07-17-2004).)