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A decent speed on a 56k modem is 5k/s. Hence, that makes about 18MB/hr at good speeds. UER&D; definitely has his numbers wrong.

This is true, for the most part, I will concede. I should have checked my figures before posting.

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... this is The Frozen Heart in particular that we're talking about here.

Frozen Heart is one thing, anything else is a whole different matter. I wasn't referring to this one case in particular, I was referring to a more generalized situation, something like this:

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...Maybe this will be the start of people pimping increasingly complex TCs to Ambrosia.

In that case, my other points still stand.

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Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
In that case, my other points still stand.

And rightfully so - Ambrosia didn't flinch when Evan pitched "Xenocide" at them, and who would blame them? They have to be discriminating. EVO and EVN were basically the best of the best when it comes to TCs, and I think they'd be inclined to view FH in a similar light if Martin decides to make the pitch.

(Edit: The upshot is that this is nothing new, but I think Mr. Turner has the chops to get this through.)

-reg

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"As a rule we believe as much as we can. We would believe everything if only we could."
~ William James

(This message has been edited by Regulus (edited 11-08-2003).)

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Originally posted by Martin Turner:
< snip>

Wow, I never new that, you, I mean, you, received so many complaints and so muc hassle over FH... Man thats enough to put anyone off plugin making. I've gotta admire your courage to keep going and make Femme Fetal as well! I hope you didn't receive nearly as much grief from it as FH...

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Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs!
-Eric Cartman Law Enforcer
"Respect my Authorita!"

Okay, just because I can, allow me to explain the post I made on page 2. It wasn't a complaint so much as a harsh bug report, being harsh because there are so many bugs. The story line I like, except for a few problems (governments that hate each other working together, you don't take over Fridion, the planets you take over are the TravelStel and not ReturnStel which is unrealistic, etc.). I should have mentioned that...I've always wanted to point out to him the numerous bugs.

Sorry about that. Believe me, I don't complain about them. If they suck, I trash them. If they're buggy, I fix them for my own personal use (so far, no released fixes, since I would only release them for EVN).

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The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.

Bomb asked me for my comments. Here they are:

• ATMOS was planning to release Nova as shareware back before we became "EV Nova". Jason Whong (marketDroid at ASW back then) okayed it, and verified that we wouldn't be violating anything by doing so, just as long as we used no EVO resources.

• I have always admired your work, Martin. Jason Cook at ATMOS in particular is a big fan of yours.

• TC projects can, if pursued, become the next version of a game. We got lucky with timing, commitment and content.

• Great plug-ins can only enhance the retail value of EV Nova. I will always vocally support them.

• Nova had (and still has) a few scenario bugs. Also, we asked for almost every engine enhancement that was made to EV, we just didn't have the time to use them all. More accurately, we didn't have time to debug our attempts to use them

• ...and can I just say that I thought a whole heap of the Cold Blood graphics were just damned awesome.

I hope this helps some.

all the best,

Dave @ ATMOS

Just to add my opinion: I see no problem with shareware plugins. There are no legal issues here. Ambrosia ship the engine, but they haven't put in any licensing clauses that say you must pay them for plugin usage of it, so the general assumption is that there is no fee for using the engine.

Another point is that to use plugins the end user must have bought a licence for the engine, and the EULA allows the use of plugins, so it is the end users choice to pay for the plugin. Apple don't charge developers for OS X applications, as the end users already have an OS X licence.

On the general idea, with the current engine it would be unenforceable, but that isn't to say Ambrosia couldn't add an encryption/licensing scheme to it. If there's a plugin created that justifies the expenditure then I see no reason why they wouldn't.

Personally, I wouldn't download a demo plugin, unless a 'upgrade' plugin could be dropped in. Say have all the unregistered missions in one file, then replace that when the user purchases. Though, as said before, piracy would be easy.

If you can create a plugin that is of such quality, then do so, but put effort in, make it run well and look good, then look in to licensing. There's no point trying to sell a badly made plugin.

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--sitharus
(url="http://"http://www.sitharus.com/")Me, online!(/url)
Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong. Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Good to see you here, Blackhole... we don't see that kiwi face enough these days.

But as to your points, legally correct as they may be, I just think they would take a huge chunk out of the spirit of the EV development community. People would stop doing plugs because they like having their story and work told, and start them for profit, I just don't like the spirit of that. I think that all decent plugs should be donationware, and would make some recompense that way.

There are plenty of development angles to take in other fields for profit, EV plugins have always been made to share and because you want to make something for the joy of making it. Profit just makes it seem... dirty or wrong.

~A~

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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

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Originally posted by Azdara:
**we don't see that kiwi face enough these days.:)
**

You know that is an oxymoron

My dad brought up a rather strange idea, but I'll post it here anyway (he is a Supreme Court Justice and ex QC Barrister). If you wanted (and Ambrosia accepted) you could actually liscence the plugin to the owner of the copyright as a replacement for the original scenario which could then be sold by the owners of the copyright and because it was liscenced you would receive a percentage of the fees.

Intersting eh?

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Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs!
-Eric Cartman Law Enforcer
"Respect my Authorita!"

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Originally posted by Azdara:
**I think that all decent plugs should be donationware, and would make some recompense that way.

There are plenty of development angles to take in other fields for profit, EV plugins have always been made to share and because you want to make something for the joy of making it. Profit just makes it seem... dirty or wrong.**

I would agree here, it's nice to see people pop up and say 'is this a good idea', or "I'm making a plugin about x, how would I implement y" and people help. There's no competition, and the aim is for the best.

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--sitharus
(url="http://"http://www.sitharus.com/")Me, online!(/url)
Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong. Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Yeah... It seems so... nice the way it works now. Just to have people making plugs not for profit, or commercial gain, but beacause they want to share.

Sings 'It's a small world'

~A~

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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

Yes indeed. For the benefit of all and the honour of seeing your name on a great plug.

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Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs!
-Eric Cartman Law Enforcer
"Respect my Authorita!"

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Originally posted by Martin Turner:
**Things I said would never happen but are now in: Magellan and Rigellian missions
**

yes... excellent...

--gav

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~~ SARZ, WZ ~~ **SARZ
~~ |-(DUKEr)-| // ~~
~~ -(FOX)- ~~
**

Sickness! I've wanted to see Rigellian and Magellan missions since I fist played Frozen Heart. (in fact for a while I thought that they were the people who DID give you missions.

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Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs!
-Eric Cartman Law Enforcer
"Respect my Authorita!"

My slightly different slant on the matter: in my case, I may end up registering EVN for the sole purpose of playing FH. (All credit to ATMOS and MB, the game looks spectacular, but EVN never hooked me enough to want to play it... and I have precious little time to play, so perhaps I didn't spend enough time on the demo to become hooked.) This being the case, in a way you could say that in my paticular instance Ambrosia would be benefiting from Martin's work. I would be very glad if in some way we could remunerate Martin for his effort... and from what I've seen so far it doesn't seem that it would be entirely outside the realm of possibility.

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I think so, Brain, but if they called them sad meals, kids wouldn't buy them.

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Originally posted by Starbridge42:
**

My dad brought up a rather strange idea, but I'll post it here anyway (he is a Supreme Court Justice and ex QC Barrister). If you wanted (and Ambrosia accepted) you could actually liscence the plugin to the owner of the copyright as a replacement for the original scenario which could then be sold by the owners of the copyright and because it was liscenced you would receive a percentage of the fees.
**

I'm kinda confused by this. Could you give an example?

More generally, I've been around the EV community since it started. I took a break for a couple years and came back when Nova came about. In all those years, there have been fewer total conversions that are complete, good universe replacements than I have fingers on 2 hands.
I think the model of 'make a plugin for the community and good of the world' idea has been tried and in some aspects have failed. The aspects I mean are referring only to having a large number of games built on the EV engine that are completely separate from the stock scenarios. Perhaps its time to incorporate a bit of monetary competition.
Reading now that ATMOS had the original intent of releasing Nova as a shareware plugin anyway, and since it was cleared by Ambrosia marketing, I think that anyone who wants to release their plug as shareware should.
Lets look at the economics. If you release a crappy plugin and want money for it, no one is going to pay you anyway. This puts more pressure on those who actually want to pursue the shareware model to create high-quality products. As someone else said, more quality plugins increase the revenue for Ambrosia and player interest in the game. With the kind of community surrounding EV, the majority of these players are very good about paying for stuff they use, if payment is required. Look at the number of people who registered Ev Nova and WinNova when they were released.
People will still be able to create free plugins. There's absolutely nothing that can stop them from doing so. Its possible that if people start creating plugins that are shareware, we could eventually see a much better community develop overall.

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For whatever little it may be worth. Having read all the arguements for both sides on the issue...

Martin if it comes out as freeware, donationware, shareware, licenseware, or even as a new game you can bet that I will support your efforts and would own a copy. While I grant that I would not buy some little cheat plug for any reason, something that is well thought out and produced is something that I will gladly open my wallot for. I am sure that I am not alone in this when it comes to the kind of things that people enjoy. The rest is just hot air and fluff.

Just mt silly two cents worth.

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Originally posted by Geuis:
**I'm kinda confused by this. Could you give an example?
**

Ok,

If you made a plug (probably a TC for simplicity sake) then you could liscence the TC to the owner of the Nova Copyright, that TC could then be used as a replacement of the Nova scenario by the owner of the copyright (so what you register), then because you own the rights to the TC (it was only liscenced to the owner of the Nova copyright after all) you would recieve a percentage of the fees from the liscensee. Does that clarify it?

EDIT: Woooo! two hundred posts!EDIT

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Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs!
-Eric Cartman Law Enforcer
"Respect my Authorita!"

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Originally posted by Ephialtes:
**Hmm.. I don't think I've seen this other ST TC, <sarcasm> I wonder what could have happened to it </sarcasm>
Total rubbish about solo efforts never succeed.

**

Have team projects ever been completed? It seems to me that the only ones that I've ever seen have been done by one or 2 people (then again, I've been away for a while, so I'm sure I could have missed something).

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Define 'team'. If 'team' means more than three or four people, I believe there is exactly one team that I have seen that has the determination to follow through and finish their plug: the Sephil Saga team.

If 'team' means two people or more, there are exactly 2 teams that I know about that have the determination. All I can say is that Azdara's an excellent partner :D.

Yes, and there will be something released when it is ready. After that something...you'll just have to wait and see ;).

Of course, I don't know about every team, so don't feel as if I'm condemning your team, but (with few exceptions) every person after 3 you add to the team seems to cut your chances of success in half.

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(quote)Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**Define 'team'. If 'team' means more than three or four people, I believe there is exactly one team that I have seen that has the determination to follow through and finish their plug: the Sephil Saga team.

If 'team' means two people or more, there are exactly 2 teams that I know about that have the determination. All I can say is that Azdara's an excellent partner

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**