For my plug-in development guide, I'd like to get some reviews from users of certain graphics programs.
At this time, I'd appreciate a paragraph-long review on the following:
1. Cinema 4D
2. Mechanisto
3. Anything except Lightwave, Bryce, Strata, and Maya.
Thanks for any help. Simply post the review in this thread or otherwise contact me. You will be credited in the final version.
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
Quote
Originally posted by Azdara:
**Well, I already said I'd do strata... I can also do mechanisto for you. It was my first graphics program, and I know it back to front... well, pretty much anyway.
~A~
**
That would be very nice. 
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
Word on the street is XSI is good...bit pricy though. I knew someone who tried making EV sprites with AutoCAD 2000, but it's not particularly well-suited.
I don't have much to offer outside of what you specifically don't want, unless you want some Photoshop stuff. I am assuming you're looking for off-the-beaten path material, though. I don't know if anyone still has a copy of X-Res (Macromedia's attempt at a photoshop clone), but I made a couple sprites and textures in it back in the day. Not likely very useful, though.
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- o n y x -
"I dn't type. I'm a kybard artist "
(url="http://"http://www.pacifier.com/~kkey/shipyard/index.html")Onyx's EV Shipyard(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Onyx:
**Word on the street is XSI is good...bit pricy though. I knew someone who tried making EV sprites with AutoCAD 2000, but it's not particularly well-suited.
I don't have much to offer outside of what you specifically don't want, unless you want some Photoshop stuff. I am assuming you're looking for off-the-beaten path material, though. I don't know if anyone still has a copy of X-Res (Macromedia's attempt at a photoshop clone), but I made a couple sprites and textures in it back in the day. Not likely very useful, though.
**
Seeing what you've done in Lightwave, I'd appreciate a review of it. AutoCAD is too bad at making 3D models, but yes, it's not quite suited for the job.
I'll some more to the list. I'm seriously doubtful that anyone on the boards uses such software though.
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
Quote
Originally posted by Onyx:
**Word on the street is XSI is good...bit pricy though. I knew someone who tried making EV sprites with AutoCAD 2000, but it's not particularly well-suited.
**
XSI is a good piece of animation software, or so I heard. I dunno, I only learned Softimage 3.8.
Matrix
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"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought -- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen
(url="http://"http://htf.mondominishows.com/valentine/main.asp?seed=7375&serial;=214877")The funniest valentine I've ever gotten.(/url)
Carrara Studio
Carrara, the flagship program of Eovia (www.eovia.com), is a little known yet competent modeling program. People familiar with RayDream or Infini-D, of which Carrara is the evolution, will adapt easily to its interface. All work is separated into 5 rooms: Assemble, Model, Storyboard, Texture, and Render. One creates objects using a variety of modelers, including primitives, vertex, spline, formula, metaball, and more specialized modelers like particle emitters, trees, terrain, fire, and text. Objects and vertices can be positioned and rotated 'by hand' or by entering the exact values for high precision.
One of the nice things about Carrara is the wide variety of procedural texture functions. Carrara supports color, highlight, shininess, bump, reflection, transparency, and glow channels in its shaders. One can use image maps or create procedural textures using and combining the included functions like noise, cellular (fractal), checkers, marble, wood, tile, formula, etc. It also handles decals and animated textures. While it supports most mapping methods one could think of, trying to make a texture map with features that correspond to specific parts of the model is difficult.
Animation is hard to control with Carrara. When you're animating a scene and you change something, you change it only at the key frame you're at, so if you're not careful you may have to manually make the change at every keyframe. One can get nice effects by animating objects like particles and fire, which are designed to animate by themselves, plus there's a selection of deformations like bend, twist, dissolve, explode, taper, and so on. One can bone models and apply inverse kinematics, or use the physics engine for realistic motion without having to work out trajectories.
Carrara has multiple renderers, from the photorealistic to the cartoonish nonphotorealistic. One can use global illumination, caustics, and a great number of special effects such as light sphere, motion blur, and lens flare. One can composite with background images from outside sources, or using the scene wizard for preset backgrounds and lighting. The CD comes with a large library of various objects, effects, and shaders that's grown over the years. Single frames almost never take more than a minute or two to render on modest systems (I run it on a 800MHz machine running Panther with a 32MB graphics card) even when using highly detailed models with complex shaders and effects.
The latest version of Carrara at the time of this writing is Carrara Studio 3. The price tag is under $400, which is a major selling point given the program's power. There's also a demo and Carrara Basics, offered as a stripped-down, cheaper version. I've used Carrara and it's ancestor RayDream for many years, and while I'm by no means a professional and just model in my spare time (mostly spaceships), it has suited my needs well.
-Captain Bob
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(url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewforum.php?f=23&start;=0")Star Wars:Nova(/url) | (url="http://"http://darktemplar.sourcecod.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=15")Chestnut's Hut(/url) | (url="http://"http://openevgalaxy.sourceforge.net/")Dawn of Infinity(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Bob:
**Carrara Studio
Carrara, the flagship program of Eovia (www.eovia.com), is a little known yet competent modeling program. People familiar with RayDream or Infini-D, of which Carrara is the evolution, will adapt easily to its interface. All work is separated into 5 rooms: Assemble, Model, Storyboard, Texture, and Render. One creates objects using a variety of modelers, including primitives, vertex, spline, formula, metaball, and more specialized modelers like particle emitters, trees, terrain, fire, and text. Objects and vertices can be positioned and rotated 'by hand' or by entering the exact values for high precision.
One of the nice things about Carrara is the wide variety of procedural texture functions. Carrara supports color, highlight, shininess, bump, reflection, transparency, and glow channels in its shaders. One can use image maps or create procedural textures using and combining the included functions like noise, cellular (fractal), checkers, marble, wood, tile, formula, etc. It also handles decals and animated textures. While it supports most mapping methods one could think of, trying to make a texture map with features that correspond to specific parts of the model is difficult.
Animation is hard to control with Carrara. When you're animating a scene and you change something, you change it only at the key frame you're at, so if you're not careful you may have to manually make the change at every keyframe. One can get nice effects by animating objects like particles and fire, which are designed to animate by themselves, plus there's a selection of deformations like bend, twist, dissolve, explode, taper, and so on. One can bone models and apply inverse kinematics, or use the physics engine for realistic motion without having to work out trajectories.
Carrara has multiple renderers, from the photorealistic to the cartoonish nonphotorealistic. One can use global illumination, caustics, and a great number of special effects such as light sphere, motion blur, and lens flare. One can composite with background images from outside sources, or using the scene wizard for preset backgrounds and lighting. The CD comes with a large library of various objects, effects, and shaders that's grown over the years. Single frames almost never take more than a minute or two to render on modest systems (I run it on a 800MHz machine running Panther with a 32MB graphics card) even when using highly detailed models with complex shaders and effects.
The latest version of Carrara at the time of this writing is Carrara Studio 3. The price tag is under $400, which is a major selling point given the program's power. There's also a demo and Carrara Basics, offered as a stripped-down, cheaper version. I've used Carrara and it's ancestor RayDream for many years, and while I'm by no means a professional and just model in my spare time (mostly spaceships), it has suited my needs well.
-Captain Bob
**
Very nice. Thanks.
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
AutoCAD 2000 isn't very good for modeling, but I think r16 or better might be OK. (My experience with r16 was very brief)
I am currently trying out Rhinoceros ( (url="http://"http://www.rhino3d.com")www.rhino3d.com(/url) ) It doesn't render though. Rendering is accomplished through another program called Flamingo. Rhino/Flamingo is what AutoDesk (maker of AutoDesk, Inventor, etc.) uses to create its box artwork.
Hopefully I will be able to post a thing I'm doing in Rhino, but first I need to get my PC updated and hooked up.
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"If you can't feel the Force, you're not pushing it." -Prof. Li on the "Force"
Got g?
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
"We're sending a complicated system into an unknown environment at very high speed. I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only conclude it's because I don't hace a full grasp of the situation." - Mark Adler
Quote
Originally posted by Chuckles:
**AutoCAD 2000 isn't very good for modeling, but I think r16 or better might be OK. (My experience with r16 was very brief)
I am currently trying out Rhinoceros ( www.rhino3d.com ) It doesn't render though. Rendering is accomplished through another program called Flamingo. Rhino/Flamingo is what AutoDesk (maker of AutoDesk, Inventor, etc.) uses to create its box artwork.
Hopefully I will be able to post a thing I'm doing in Rhino, but first I need to get my PC updated and hooked up.
**
I was under the impression that they used MAX, as Discreet Software, MAX's publisher, is a division of Autodesk. Could be mistaken though.
Joe
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"Life is tough, but it's even tougher when you're stupid."
-John Wayne
JDH: I'd say so. One would think using Rhino renders to advertise MAX would constitute fraud, no?
Carrara is decent, but honestly if you can get a copy I'd recommend Ray Dream over it any day. Some day, maybe two or three iterations from now, Carrara might rival MAX or Lightwave, but the first two versions were little better than public betas and I can't imagine that 3 is a radical improvement. And, of course, it suffers from that unconscionable curse of an "intuitive interface", which is in fact anything but intuitive to anybody but the monkeys who designed it, and makes it much harder to get to functions that were a mere toolbar away in RDS. Ray Dream 5.5 does basically everything Carrara does more competently (once you've added a few free plugs), albeit a bit slower and in a more, ah, crotchety fashion, as is to be expected given the age of the program. I'd recommend Carrara, though, if you can't afford MAX or find RDS. It's less stupid than, say, TrueSpace. And if that's damning it with faint praise, well, fine. I had an absolutely wretched time with the beastly thing, and this is the closest to an objective review I can give.
If you're running PC, MAX is the de facto standard for modeling. It fills a similar niche as Photoshop does for 2D graphics, and like Photoshop you get out of it exactly what you put into it- at the most basic level, it's absurdly easy to make primitives-based models, and eventually you'll just learn more and more of the ten hundred bajillion neat little tricks they packed in there just in the process of making more stuff. It's quite simple to understand for those people who aren't some kind of wierdo Lighwave-user (the two seem to play to different sides of the brain or something, most people I know either had a great fundamental understanding of MAX and were utterly lost by Lightwave's funky modal modeling system or vice versa), and in more than just my case switching to it caused a nearly overnight change in the quality of stuff being output. On the other hand, base MAX without any plugins... well, I'll be honest, it sucks ass at rendering, something they've only very recently even begun to bother with at all. RDS was years ahead, and they stopped making that sometime around 1995. Fortunately, there are literally tons of absolutely wonderful plugins (Simbiont and Brazil in particular seem to have been divinely inspired), many of which are free or shareware, so the frustration of being unable to get decent procedurals for your nice two-million-poly uberfancy star cruiser is replaced with the mild annoyance of having to keep track of a horde of miscellaneous third-party plugs. The commercial version is, like the name says, made for people who intend on profiting considerably off the product, so stick with Educational- it's worth every cent of the $500 and then some.
XSI, like Maya, is... pricey. That's basically it. Most people'll never get a real chance to play with the program, because the price range is absurd and they're openly made exclusively for pros. I agree that you're thoroughly unlikely to find anybody who actually uses it, and I'd say there's no reason at all you'd need anything that costs anything on that scale unless you're running a major render farm (and I do mean major ).
(This message has been edited by Coyote (edited 03-20-2004).)
Would you mind telling me of your 3D modeling experience? Especially with the said programs.
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
Me? I practically grew up with an old copy of Ray Dream, learned all the basics on it. Got Carrara as soon as the first version became available, did pretty much the same for version two in the hopes they'd ironed out all the problems (they had quite a lot, but not nearly enough). Used whichever version I had at the moment basically as an occasional addon to RDS when I wanted higher render speeds or better lighting. Got Studio MAX 5 Educational about three months before 6 came out and then took advantage of a free upgrade that came with the package after having played around with an, ah, less legitimate version of v4 for a few months years before. Am in the process of getting the hang of the more advanced functions, and finally getting around to understanding organic modeling. I'd like to think I'm reasonably competent at MAX and RDS, though given the fact that I only rarely seem to get very informative feedback it's hard to say.
As for other stuff, I've spent at least some time fiddling with most of the major programs for various reasons- I know enough about TrueSpace, Blender, Lightwave, Poser, AMAPI, and a few others to know that they're not my thing, and not generally a whole lot beyond that. I live in awe of the sort of expendable income bracket that can get Softimage XSI.
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(This message has been edited by Coyote (edited 03-20-2004).)
Okay Zhouj, I emailed you my Strata review, including pro and base. i'll write up the mechanisto one sometime soon, but if you don't get it quickly, just email me again and bug me untill I do it. I might forget otherwise, because of uni and stuff...
Hope the guide goes well, it'll certainly be handy for us graphics people, since we'll be able to answer all those "What does I use to make teh ship for nova" topics with a link to the guide you're making. Nice.
Damn... Just remembered that I forgot to specify that Strata is for both platforms, but mainly only for the mac, since there seem to be no preference files for strata on the PC. That seems to be the only way to get it to work, since strata stopped supporting Strata 3D registration on the web. You want to put that in somewhere Zhouj? Thanks.
~A~
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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-
Quote
Originally posted by Coyote:
XSI, like Maya, is... pricey. That's basically it. Most people'll never get a real chance to play with the program, because the price range is absurd and they're openly made exclusively for pros. I agree that you're thoroughly unlikely to find anybody who actually uses it, and I'd say there's no reason at all you'd need anything that costs anything on that scale unless you're running a major render farm (and I do mean major ).
XSI is an amazing piece of software, although after trying it out after a year of exclusively using Lightwave was a bit of a challenge. Well, it was a lot of a challenge. The interface is totally different from Softimage. I've heard, however, that animation in XSI and in Softimage is excellent (I've used Softimage to animate, but I wasn't very good then). There is the XSI Experience available from (url="http://"http://www.softimage.com")www.softimage.com(/url) for $20.00 USD that's a full featured version of XSI, and is better than Maya PLE. You do get watermarks in rendered images, but they're not as pervasive as PLE's. Softimage 4.0 (not XSI) plus MentalRay is also available at the site for $2495, and without MentalRay for $1495. Not bad if you ask me. XSI is available at student prices for way under $1000, so I don't know why you say that no one uses it.
Matrix
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"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought -- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen
(url="http://"http://htf.mondominishows.com/valentine/main.asp?seed=7375&serial;=214877")The funniest valentine I've ever gotten.(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by Azdara:
**Okay Zhouj, I emailed you my Strata review, including pro and base. i'll write up the mechanisto one sometime soon, but if you don't get it quickly, just email me again and bug me untill I do it. I might forget otherwise, because of uni and stuff...
Hope the guide goes well, it'll certainly be handy for us graphics people, since we'll be able to answer all those "What does I use to make teh ship for nova" topics with a link to the guide you're making. Nice.
Damn... Just remembered that I forgot to specify that Strata is for both platforms, but mainly only for the mac, since there seem to be no preference files for strata on the PC. That seems to be the only way to get it to work, since strata stopped supporting Strata 3D registration on the web. You want to put that in somewhere Zhouj? Thanks.
~A~
**
Thanks for doing the reviews. I'll be sure to add a line about the registration issue somewhere appropriate in the review.
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(url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
Matrix: I go by what I hear and know. I was thinking of XSI, which I've never heard of anyone actually use, and which cost (last I checked) at least a digit higher than that. I've only heard very little about non-XSI Softimage, so I ain't gonna say anything on that either way.
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