Quote

Originally posted by UncleTwitchy:
**Yes, actually -- two of them, to be precise.

**

I don't think you should -ever- have two outfits point to the same weapon. Ever. Why? Because in the shïp resource, the weapon loadout is expressed in weapons ID. Then, in order to know the freemass, the engine needs to translate these weapons in the outfits (launcher, and ammo if applicable) that point to the weapons in order to compute the mass they take, in order to compute the freemass without anything, before removing the mass of the outfits you have. How the hell will the engine knows which outfit who grants the weapon to take? Not only that, but actually every time you land, your weapon loadout is tranformed in outfits (because you may have used some missiles...), thus the documented loss of weapons for which there are no outfits. When you take off, these weapons outfit are turned back into weapons.

If you need to have two weapons draw ammo from the same source, you should make it the way it is done in the standard scenario: there is only one ammo outfit, which points to the first weapons. But the second weapon in its ammo field tells to use ammo from the first weapon.

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Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
I don't think you should -ever- have two outfits point to the same weapon. Ever.If you need to have two weapons draw ammo from the same source, you should make it the way it is done in the standard scenario: there is only one ammo outfit, which points to the first weapons. But the second weapon in its ammo field tells to use ammo from the first weapon.

You misunderstood. That is how I did it.

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Then why the hell do you have two different oütfs pointing to the same weapon as ammunitions?

I'm sorry, I have to go now (8:15 AM ET)
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(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 03-12-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
**Then why the hell do you have two different oütfs pointing to the same weapon as ammunitions?

I'm sorry, I have to go now (8:15 AM ET)**

No, I don't -- I have two different outfits pointing to two different weapons that reference the same ammo. I'm sorry, but I think I misinterpreted the question asked to me earlier, which caused your confusion.

To recap:

Three oütfs:

153 Mk I Torpedo (mass: 1, this is the oütf that references wëap 152 as the ammo for oütf 154 & 155)
154 Photon Torpedo (mass: 0, references wëap resource 152, Photon Torpedo)
155 Photon Torpedo Burst (mass: 0, references wëap resource 153, Torpedo Burst, which submunitions to wëap resource 154, Torpedo Spread, which references wëap 152 as its ammo)

The shďp resource then has, in its stock wëap slots, wëap 152 and 153, each with half the total intended ammo (if I gave only one of these wëaps any ammo, the other wëap doesn't ever get ammo, even when its purchased).

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It shouldn't be that way (I think, if I understood well what you said, which is far from sure). The oütf must state it is the ammo for the wëap from which the ammo is drawn (therefore, the same ID as the one being found in the ammo field of the different weapons), regardless of which weapons actually use this ammo.

Now you need to give the ammo as standard in your ship, but I think (never tested, and far from the data, God I hate being at school) that putting weapon ID 254, one launcher, 3 ammo (for instance) in the appropriate fields of the shïp resource, will make the engine directly look for the oütf that states it is the launcer for weapon 254 and the oütf that states it is the ammo for weapon 254, regardless of the fact the wëap ID 254 actually draws ammo from weapon 254, so this outf won't exist if weap ID 254 draws ammo from another weapon, ID 252 for instance.

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How much have these outfits and weapons changed from the last SFA release? (Aside from outf 153 now having a mass of 1).

I just ran a few tests, and it seems that there are a couple of things going on here. First, Nova seems to be calculating the free mass and total usable mass before it grants the weapons and outfits to the player. For example, a ship with default weapon 152 (count 1, ammo 4), and weapon 153 (count 1, ammo 4), and a free mass of 8 will have a total usable mass of 16. However, it seems that after this is figured, Nova attempts to give the actual outfits to the ship, but DOES NOT want the same weap/ammo being referenced twice in the same ship resource. So, it's only actually granting one of the ammo fields, even though the shipyard info will list 4 ammo for each of the weapons. In this case, the player will have an extra 4 tons available, even though the shipyard info will list 4 ammo for each of the weapons.

In the next test, I played with the ammo #'s in the ship resource. I gave weapon 152 an ammo value of 8, and weapon 153 an ammo value of 1. The shipyard info correctly stated 8 ammo for 152, and 1 ammo for 153, but was only actually given 8 ammo on purchase. And yes, that one that wasn't granted turned into an extra unit of mass. I also reversed the ammo payloads in the ship resource, with the results being that the higher of the 2 payloads was used.

I then looked at the Nova scenario for instances where a ship had hail and storm chainguns as default weapons, each with a positive ammo payload. In both cases, the player was only granted the higher of the 2 amounts.

Your best bet might be to give one of the default weapons the total payload of ammo, and the second a value of 1. Then assign the ship one less ton of free mass. Though, the shipyard info will still be a problem.

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Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
It shouldn't be that way (I think, if I understood well what you said, which is far from sure). The oütf must state it is the ammo for the wëap from which the ammo is drawn (therefore, the same ID as the one being found in the ammo field of the different weapons), regardless of which weapons actually use this ammo.

I'm sorry, I thought I explained that I did that... in the example above, that's what oütf 153 does.

Quote

Now you need to give the ammo as standard in your ship, but I think (never tested, and far from the data, God I hate being at school) that putting weapon ID 254, one launcher, 3 ammo (for instance) in the appropriate fields of the shďp resource, will make the engine directly look for the oütf that states it is the launcer for weapon 254 and the oütf that states it is the ammo for weapon 254, regardless of the fact the wëap ID 254 actually draws ammo from weapon 254, so this outf won't exist if weap ID 254 draws ammo from another weapon, ID 252 for instance.

Again, I'm already doing that. I thought I made that clear, and if I didn't I certainly apologize.

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
How much have these outfits and weapons changed from the last SFA release? (Aside from outf 153 now having a mass of 1).

Quite a bit, actually -- since I was unable to solve the Shoot-Four-Lose-One-Ammo problem of the submunition, I've declared each unit of ammo is four torpedoes -- and then quartered each ship's ammo complement. I also made sure the single torps fired in bursts of four.

Quote

**I just ran a few tests, and it seems that there are a couple of things going on here. First, Nova seems to be calculating the free mass and total usable mass before it grants the weapons and outfits to the player. For example, a ship with default weapon 152 (count 1, ammo 4), and weapon 153 (count 1, ammo 4), and a free mass of 8 will have a total usable mass of 16. However, it seems that after this is figured, Nova attempts to give the actual outfits to the ship, but DOES NOT want the same weap/ammo being referenced twice in the same ship resource. So, it's only actually granting one of the ammo fields, even though the shipyard info will list 4 ammo for each of the weapons. In this case, the player will have an extra 4 tons available, even though the shipyard info will list 4 ammo for each of the weapons.
<snip>

Your best bet might be to give one of the default weapons the total payload of ammo, and the second a value of 1. Then assign the ship one less ton of free mass. Though, the shipyard info will still be a problem.**

The former is the solution I hit on -- divide the number by half and make the player "buy up" to the other half.

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Alrighty, then. It's kind of funny. What I saw as the problem, you see as the solution. I guess that's why people like you create wonderful TC's, and people like me... well, we just play 'em.

Basically, I thought your goal was to have the ship outfitted with 8 torpedoes and have 8 tons of free mass above that. I figured the latter option I posted would accomplish both of these.

A related question might be if this ammo anomaly effects the AI, and how would changes to accomodate the player alter the strength/payload of the AI.

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Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**Alrighty, then. It's kind of funny. What I saw as the problem, you see as the solution. I guess that's why people like you create wonderful TC's, and people like me... well, we just play 'em.

Basically, I thought your goal was to have the ship outfitted with 8 torpedoes and have 8 tons of free mass above that. I figured the latter option I posted would accomplish both of these.**

Actually, either does accomplish this, but my actual goal is to make sure the ship has a maximum of 8 torps total, to reflect the fact that it actually has 32 torps (remember, each ammo unit represents four torps).

Quote

**A related question might be if this ammo anomaly effects the AI, and how would changes to accomodate the player alter the strength/payload of the AI.

**

It hasn't seemed to affect it terribly, actually -- having the AI ships be at half their max gives the impression that they've been out there using them, as far as I'm concerned.

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Quote

Originally posted by UncleTwitchy:
**It hasn't seemed to affect it terribly, actually -- having the AI ships be at half their max gives the impression that they've been out there using them, as far as I'm concerned.
**

OHHHH!!!! I get it now. You give the ship 8x4 torpedoes and you don't want the player to have any more than that? Okay, then if I understood you correctly, and I remember my resources correctly, then aren't you supposed to give the ship no free space? The free space field is in addition to the weapons that are defaulted on the ship.

Matrix

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Okay, so now we should pay attention to the-way-the-free-mass-is-computed-in-a-ship-that-comes- with-default-weapons-that-use-the-same-not-weightless-ammo. I'm sorry I misunderstood you, UncleTwitchy, and assumed you made errors you didn't make. -ZP stores the info on a corner of his built-in hard drive, it might be useful to know-

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(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 03-13-2004).)

Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
OHHHH!!!! I get it now. You give the ship 8x4 torpedoes and you don't want the player to have any more than that? Okay, then if I understood you correctly, and I remember my resources correctly, then aren't you supposed to give the ship no free space? The free space field is in addition to the weapons that are defaulted on the ship.

Yeah, and that finally sank in and that's what I've done.

Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
I'm sorry I misunderstood you, UncleTwitchy, and assumed you made errors you didn't make.

'Sokay, I wasn't exactly clear either. We're good.

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By the way, mrxak, if you happen to see this, this inconsistency (the-way-the-...) is not worthy of being corrected in a future Nova version (as the standard scenario does not have any one of those and it's easy to correct in plugs), but it could be documented in the Nova Bible to come with the 1.0.8, couldn't it?

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