OK, despite the long winded title, I just want to post the latest mission I've written and really just see if you think it is took graphic/violent/sexual/perverse/whatever for a plug. Basically, it conveys the tone I'm shooting for for the project. I want to know if you think I should put a warning label on the plug and go for it, or build in a parental-control mechanism, or simply tone it down.

As you read this, please note that this particular scene is SUPPOSED to be pretty far out there... the limit of acceptability. It is supposed to be gritty and graphic, shocking even. Some of you might consider it tame, even though.

Interesting story about why I wrote this: I was reading a post somewhere that mentioned me pimping something. So of course, pimping brings up memories of an early idea where you would be able to whore yourself out for money in the plug. Which, since I was feeling kind of dark last night, led to rape and graphic violence. Not sure how I made the leap, but I did. For those wondering, I don't think I'm a pervert, but you can make up your own mind.

Now, without further adoo,

Edit: Removed by Pipeline's Request. Thank's for the feedback. Exactly what I wanted.

The mission switches to the briefing text here, which is notably lighter, but very cynical and filled with emotion (I think). I'll post it later if you want.

So, does it work? Will it go over OK? Will this (and many more like it) make the plug to depressing? I think if there is going to be any theme of hope, happiness and heroism in this plug, it is going to be found in reverse, as horrible things happen to both good and bad people. Not necessarily violent horrible things, but people getting screwed, cheated, and taken advantage of, whether they know it or not. I'm kind of going for an George Orwell-esque thing.

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~Charlie
Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)

(This message has been edited by Masamune (edited 01-15-2004).)

if I read that in a plug I would stop playing. It's pretty extreme for an EV plug, and would definetly need a parental control.

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(url="http://"http://www.adventuredog.net")Adventure Dog(/url): Everyone's favorite little black and white dog.
In a fight for peace, you must fight for equality, not revenge.
"I am against evolution being taught in schools. I am also against widespread literacy and the refrigeration of food." - The Onion

Wow, someone that can actually write. Seems to be a rare thing on these boards. Well done. As far as the content goes, your writing I think makes the content acceptable. Personally, I think it would have been better to end it at the line, "You grit your teeth and prepare to hurt them as best you can." The introduction of the female character is also slightly confusing. I know that female/female and femail/male rapes happen but it seems unlikely that their would be a women with a group a male rapists. Also, I would hope that the scene has an impact on the story and the character - for better or worse. Although it well written, if it has no importance and is only there to add flavor then I'd say throw it out completely. Otherwise, I think it's fine as it is and would be acceptable in a plug as long as there was a warning regarding the plugs content. Bad things happen but you've managed to detail an atrocious event in a "tasteful" way - if such a thing can be described as tasteful. One bit of critism, without knowing what else you've written to build the character, where the scene is coming from and where it's progressing, I would make absolutely sure that the text leading up to and in the scene makes the player really care about and connect with their character. Make it personal for the player. These things should not be taken lightly and the player should not take it lightly either. My goal in writing that would be to have the player read it the first time they play. But every subsequent time I'd want them to feel like skipping over. I think that's the kind of emotional response you want from the person reading it.

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((Ż'ˇ.¸(Ż'ˇ.¸Ť•-KAME-•ť¸.ˇ'´Ż)¸.ˇ'´Ż))
I used to jog but the ice kept falling out of my glass.
(url="http://"http://www.0three0.net/l-1551/")L 1551(/url) - The official site of RONIN and The Way and the ten thousand things

Quote

Originally posted by sparky:
**if I read that in a plug I would stop playing. It's pretty extreme for an EV plug, and would definetly need a parental control.

**

Ditto. You are a good writer, how ever.

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A life, ohhhh, that a new plug-in right?
"Borb II of V.S.S Hellfire."

Personally I think it's fine, if a bit dark, but go with whatever fits the plug.
If you recieve many complaints, perhaps you could create a char which sets a bit, which edits out the more adult stuff in the descs or something

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(url="http://"http://blog.evula.net/Ephialtes")The Blog of Ephialtes(/url)

The writing is so-so, but the spelling could use a little work.

Since I'll never see it, and I find it completely plausible, I have no problem with it.

Better make something like a "PG Rated Patch" though.

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When viewing a Terrapin for the first time, I realized that anything flies-if you throw it hard enough!

Oh, I forgot to mention, this only happens IF you are a female character, and then only if you are marked as Physically Attractive. The various bit-switches refer to various levels of martial arts ability- Bruce Lee (female type) and Paris Hilton would have different reactions to certain events.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, Kame. While it is more or less a random event, it won't happen until you've had a chance to connect with your character. That's one of the goals I forgot to mention. This plug is very dependant on time, and as such, has alot more role-playing elements to it than, say, Nova. There are multitudes of chances for your choices to affect the flow of the game. Your choice of character in the beginning is the first part of making you care about your character, and the realization that your choices have real effects on the game flow should make the character think twice about doing just about everything. Hopefully, the player will be unlucky enough to have this happen and truly feel for the character, and wonder, "What's next?"

I included the female as part of the group mostly because I've heard stories (or rumours) about it being the case at times. The other reason was to enhance the shock factor, and further drive home the point that these are A. not nice people, B. not totally outcasts, that this is almost acceptable.

I debated about the final lines, but I was trying to make it feel more real. Rape is a tough topic, that most people don't even want to think about.

It does set other things in motion, and may change your character's reactions later. However, it is mostly intended as atmosphere- it's not the start of a major storyline or anything of the sort. I'll definately take that into consideration, though.

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~Charlie
Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)

I tend to agree about the stopping point Kame mentioned. Past that you would get into some issues with the younger crowd. Maybe it does evoke emotions but there is a point past which I would not want my 14 year old daughter to read.

Just my humble opinion.

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Nothing like the smell of burnt rubber in the morning. - Now let's see some Tiresmoke!
(url="http://"http://www.rsdg.net")www.rsdg.net(/url)

I agree very much with Kame.

Some points though:
Even if the text is fine, you can't put it in as it is. You have to make this text a bit better; a low quality text of this type has no place anywhere. Edit out some of the parts like the lines at the end, the girl in the group, and some other nasty stuff.
Also, it's not very important that it decides much about her future, but at least some parts.

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(url="http://"http://en.wikipedia.org")En Wikipedia(/url)

Gritty, disturbing, dark. I was quite shocked, I didn't expect it to be so detailed.

I'd like to see more of this type of stuff in plug-ins.
Nicely written Masamune, and despite what some people have said, I think you should keep the bit about the female gang member in. It does enhance the shock factor.

But, If it is like this in the game, there has to be a warning, or something that cuts out the mature content for younger players.

I know some people will be up in arms about this, saying stuff such as 'think of how many kids play this game etc' But think of how many adults play it aswell, I think we deserve some grown-up plugs.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain.

For the most part, I agree with Kame. It isn't too badly written, but the content is not exactly tasteful (not that it was meant to be, obviously). However, one thing that, as others had mentioned, is the dialogue at the end. This is not entirely necessary. If you edit out some of the mature content (Notably, the Grunor bit, the "tightness" bit, and the holding her face up bit), and keep the graphic details to a minimum, it would definitely be fine by me, as well as the majority of the community.

I should also note that such writing would leave a much larger impression on the player if you only hint at the events that take place, and not actually describing them in detail. We don't need to know that they ripped off her pants and underwear, that is usually assumed. Additionally, if you want to add to the confused, dreamlike tone, you could achieve the effect with minimal, non-graphic dialogue, perhaps having only the two police-related lines, as they do give some example of the atmosphere of the planet, and who is really in control, and ending with the ID line. That is truly all you need.

Remember, this (i hope...) is not supposed to be a pornography scene, it is a brutal, rape scene. We don't need to know all the details- minimalism can have a much more profound effect on the player. If you truly want to include those scenes, you could include flashbacks of the scene, again minimalist, in order to convey a better sense of rage and blind fury.

~ SpacePirate

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Eat blazing electric death!

Although I would not have any problem with this in a plug, I know people that are around the age of 12 (that play nova) and would want no part in such a thing. I mean, heck, I started playing EV when I was 7? 8? 9? I don't know, but I was a lot less mature than I am now, and I think a lot of people who play Nova are. Heck, just look at the Nova board. As tough as it may be to realize it, the audience for this plug may very well be a lot younger than you think.

That said, I think that it kicks ass and you should keep it.

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"Back in the day, when men were men, and women were also men..."

Gut-wrenching, powerful, and unexpected. The writing isn't perfect, but it's pretty well up there. If you are going to put this in, you definitely need a warning, at the least. ( Is there a way to "build in a parental-control mechanism"?) You might do Ambrosia the favor of not putting it on their servers -- this could generate some nasty responses if sensitive parents spot it on their childrens' computer screens.

As for myself, I could take this in a plug, but only a couple of times. "Many more like it" would turn me off. I also would want it to be very important to plot and character development, and to be sure that it would be followed by some sort of resolution -- or at the very least that it would be counterbalanced by future positive events in the character's life. To be raped in a vignette that is "mostly intended as atmosphere" (your own phrase), would make me feel, well, raped. That's not something I look for in a game.

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(url="http://"http://home.comcast.net/~drtrowel/")Dr. Trowel's E.S.W.P.(/url) -- Featuring Cold Fusion Graphics for EVN Override, and an EVN/O outfit bug fix.
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Interests: The Good, The Bad, and The Loopy.

I know that this is my second response, but it's partly in response to what other people have written since then.

I think that it is too detailed, and not that well written. A good writer can make this powerful while only hinting at what goes on. It's lewd and rather overdone.

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(url="http://"http://www.adventuredog.net")Adventure Dog(/url): Everyone's favorite little black and white dog.
In a fight for peace, you must fight for equality, not revenge.
"I am against evolution being taught in schools. I am also against widespread literacy and the refrigeration of food." - The Onion

Ah, more constructive criticism. Thank you.

I was going for minimalism as far as description goes, SpacePirate, but looking back I definately see where you are coming from, and I agree. The last lines, while effective, are unnecessary in any form. It's not supposed to be pornography at all, and I agree that it may be TOO graphic at times. This was very difficult to write... I felt like I was walking a fine line.

Back to the female gang member, I forgot to mention the #1 reason she is there- that rape is a crime about control. You don't go out and rape someone because you're horny, you do it for the sense of power it gives you- or so I've been informed ;). THAT is why she is there- I think even a female wouldn't mind that feeling, even without resorting actual sex.

"Many more like it" was not a meant to mean rape scenes or anything like it, I was really refering to graphic and explicit scenes. There are a few times I have planned where the player will either partake in, or be witness to, some horrendous crimes. I am not a violence monger, but I have found that used correctly, graphic description can be a powerful tool to the writer.

On the Vignette-aspect: Great way to categorize it... that's exactly what it would be. While this particular event doesn't have much of anything optional about it, I have planned many events using the vignette-style. Random things that occur and you witness, usually with an option to do something about it- things like seeing walls/catwalks/whatever collapse on people, or people falling off of them. You can save them. Do you? The other method would be entirely dependant on your character's skills. If you are a good martial artist, you spring to save the poor arcoslave. If not, well, he dies. It's not connected to the plot in any meaningful way, but gives you an insight into your character. Do you feel this style of mission is a general no-no, or only in extreme cases such as this?

A parental-control system was just implemented. Unfortunately, the player would get to choose what version to play (Standard or Limited), but it does provide the option and a warning. Basically, it will screen out events like this totally, and wherever possible, change the dialog text to skirt around any particularly graphic content. Do you think this is enough? This is a tough audience to write for. While I am older (23 = old), as are many of the developers here (relatively) a quick trip to the Nova board will quickly convince you that this isn't the norm. I do not want to alienate too large a portion of the audience, and I definately want it to be put on Ambrosia's servers without causing anyone any headaches.

Thanks for all the input... this has been most invaluble. I put it out here so that I could gage what needs to happen, and it seems to be working great. Again, I reiterate, this is definately as extreme as anything would be, but I need to know what the limits are.

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~Charlie
Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)

I personaly think it would make great as part of a story... But not part of a plug-in/mission.

The detail is a little unnessisary, and if you included it in a plug it would just seem like you did so for the sex content. Ick.

Make a great story out of it, but don't make it into a Nova mission storyline.

You are a pretty good writer, lots of feeling in your work.

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."-Albert Einstein

Does this scene ever come back afterwards, or is it just a random event?
If the latter, take it out.

Otherwise, well, I wouldn't enjoy reading it. But I guess that's the point. Will the rest of the plugin have events similar to this?

Also, rapists (I'm guessing here) generally don't use lubricant.

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And there's more where that came from!

Quote

Originally posted by Masamune:
**A parental-control system was just implemented. Unfortunately, the player would get to choose what version to play (Standard or Limited), but it does provide the option and a warning. Basically, it will screen out events like this totally, and wherever possible, change the dialog text to skirt around any particularly graphic content. Do you think this is enough?
**

I wish it was enough -- but no, I don't think it is. A lot of 12-year-olds think their parents are less qualified than they are to make decisions about what they should be exposed to. Almost all of those 12-year-olds are wrong. A voluntary "control" system is not much better than zilch. (Sorry, kids.)

On another issue, regarding "vignettes." Yeah, atmospheric episodes will add a lot to the experience of playing your TC. Keep this in mind, though: players play for the gratification that comes with success. If you too frequently make them feel like passive viewers, or like bad things (not just rapes) happen to them regardless of their actions, you are gonna lose 'em. This thing you're making isn't a passively read book, nor is it a 2-hour movie -- and in a way, it's harder than either one. You gotta make your audience feel like they are in control, and you have to keep 'em satisfied for days. I think you know this and are walkin' on the edge on purpose, which is fine -- just don't go over.

You write, and you think, so I want to see this plug work. You're up to it!

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(url="http://"http://home.comcast.net/~drtrowel/")Dr. Trowel's E.S.W.P.(/url) -- Featuring Cold Fusion Graphics for EVN Override, and an EVN/O outfit bug fix.
Very Good Stuff: (url="http://"http://ev-nova.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2832&sid;=43627ead61761e7f19060b00c14c739c")Big Nova FAQ(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=31&SUBMIT;=Go")Bomb's Plug-in Guide(/url) (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/escape_velocity/")EVula's Lair(/url) (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url)
Interests: The Good, The Bad, and The Loopy.

In strict terms of writing, it's good. I could probably write something comparable, but there's only one way to tell, and I don't feel like posting anything here.

This worries me a bit. I was planning to use mission descriptions about two or three times as violent (although not necessarily as graphic) as part of Retribution, in order to reveal several key aspects about a particular antagonistic entity. I don't know how well that'll go over; if it helps to know, there will be an underlying theme of hope and moral distinction. But if this archetype fails to pass muster, I'm going to have to rethink a bit of the content.

Quote

I was reading a post somewhere that mentioned me pimping something.

Ahh...that was part of Azdara and my public private discussion.

It seems there's something about sexual explicity that kind of turns off most people. We can go into a movie, watch some guy pummel other people, guns going off, cities and planets being vaporized, and it's okay. But there's more of a stigma attached to sexual content- although there's a big difference between Vader ordering the destruction of a planet and a sexual crime, we get more disturbed at the latter. I think it has to do in part with religious conventions, as many religions (including Christianity) stress the importance of sexual relations as part of a moral life; naturally speaking, we should probably be more disturbed by the deaths of hundreds of people than the 'violation of sanctity' of a few, as several orders of magnitude more get hurt in the former scenario. But there's always the personal aspect (rape is personal, while watching a planet go up in fire is impersonal), and the legitimization of violence in the form of self-defense, the military, and personal vendettas (presumably to attain justice).

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Retribution: An Upcoming Plug-in for EVN.
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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 01-14-2004).)

you also have to consider that maybe someone who's playing this has been abused. Or that they didn't really know what turning the control off meant (I wouldn't have when I was 9, and this would have really disturbed me). I don't know, unless the player gets pregent and that somehow plays into the plot, I think there are a lot of better ways to show a gritty, nasty world. Ones that don't involve almost rape-porn stories.

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(url="http://"http://www.adventuredog.net")Adventure Dog(/url): Everyone's favorite little black and white dog.
In a fight for peace, you must fight for equality, not revenge.
"I am against evolution being taught in schools. I am also against widespread literacy and the refrigeration of food." - The Onion

(This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-14-2004).)