Book of Mormon plug-in

Kishkumen

Anyone care to team up to make a Book of Mormon plug-in? I started on one for the original EV and now I'd like to make a complete NOVA version. It would be set in the book of Alma, with each city a different system.
I can do all the 3D ships, outfits, and planets, and I have some ideas for missions. What I'd like is some help with the programming and some other mission ideas.

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mrxak

No offense, really, but why would you want to do this?

Geuis

Umm... no.

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Starbridge42

That type of scenario does not lend itself well to the engine, also people are far more eager to sign up for a project based on an original idea rather than one based on a book/tv show/movie etc. Also I don't think a religious orientated plugin would be well recieved. mJust my two cents.

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"Respect my Authorita!"

General Cade Smart

I dont like. Mormons are a relious sect. Religion is not usuallyy included in plug-ins, but if you must have religion in a plug-in, do Christianity. Christianity was included in Frozen Heart with many other philosophies (was Unitarism one of them?).

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I am eager to try to answer mission questions

Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:

The original novel was as much about moral philosophy as archaeology. Lars Sřrensson: Christian, Alana de Quinet: utilitarian, Virana Chabarti: Hobbesian egoist, Mordillo, agnostic existentialist, Piper: nihilist/übermensch

I found it interesting that Dr. Sřrensson in Frozen Heart seemed to be one of perhaps two or three explicitly mentioned characters in the entire FH galaxy actually trying make the universe a better place. Conversely, Piper (I believe it was) tried to steal the alien super-weapon and destroy the galaxy. Something very similar appplies in FF, where the woman's boyfriend goes over to Human Justice in place of her.

Religion is one of those very controversial topics that nevertheless could be considered important, even critical, in making a believable 'realistic' scenario. Given the commanding aspect that religious and metaphysical beliefs have in people's lives in the past and today, it seems highly unlikely that one would be able to make a believable universe without at least touching upon the impact of religion (or at the very least philosophy) upon the people, governments, and cultures contained within the universe.

I think an oblique treatment probably works best, unless you're trying to write a science-fiction type of allegory (the Pilgrim's Progress set in space!?). Given that usually these are imaginary characters practicing real or made-up religions, you can make it motivation or explanation for a whole range of actions.

But that's just my two cents worth of commentary.

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 11-17-2003).)

Martin Turner

Quote

Originally posted by General Cade Smart:
**I dont like. Mormons are a relious sect. Religion is not usuallyy included in plug-ins, but if you must have religion in a plug-in, do Christianity. Christianity was included in Frozen Heart with many other philosophies (was Unitarism one of them?).

**

That would be utilitarianism. Unitarianism is something different. Utilitarianism, also known as consequentialism, is a moral philosophy that says that the morality of an action is based on its results. Although it begins with the premise that 'good' is the maximum amount of benefit to the maximum number of people and the minimum harm to the minimum number, it gets stuck when you try to quantify or predict this in real life situations.

Re the topic: you have to be careful about anything that explicit. I would suspect that the Mormon community would be upset if you did a plug-in that didn't reflect their orthodoxy, while the non-Mormon community would probably just avoid the plug-in.

Salman Rushdie had the same problem with his book 'the Satanic Verses' - orthodox Muslims were offended by it, although, in the event, the publicity surrounding the fatwah against him probably accounted for the bulk of the book's sales. On the other hand, there are an awful lot more Muslims in the world than Mormons.

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seant

Quote

Originally posted by General Cade Smart:
**I dont like. Mormons are a relious sect. Religion is not usuallyy included in plug-ins, but if you must have religion in a plug-in, do Christianity.
**

I suspect that Mormons would be insulted by that statement, as they consider themselves followers of Christ (i.e. Christian).

Seant goes to poke at some gold tablets he hid in the basement.

-STH

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"Create enigmas, not explanations." -Robert Smithson

Geuis

On the other hand, this plugin would be fun in one aspect. Your ship could have multiple escorts, each being one of your wives!

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Mazca

Quote

Originally posted by Geuis:
**On the other hand, this plugin would be fun in one aspect. Your ship could have multiple escorts, each being one of your wives!

**

Heh.

I agree here that this is a rather strange idea... perhaps worth a try, but I wouldn't rate your chances of it being well liked. Mormonism is controversial enough as it is.

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(url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url) , Moderator, (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=9&SUBMIT;=Go&urgaylol;=yes")EV Developer's Corner(/url)
cool night air is curious

seant

Quote

Originally posted by Mazca:
**Mormonism is controversial enough as it is.
**

Is it? Maybe it's because I'm in the area that the Mormons got started in, but around here, no one cares. They're kinda lumped in with the Amish and Christian Scientists.

-STH

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"Create enigmas, not explanations." -Robert Smithson

Mazca

It's not exactly controversial like the KKK is controversial, but away from it's native grounds it's definitely seen by many as a rather bizarre religious sect.

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(url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url) , Moderator, (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=9&SUBMIT;=Go&urgaylol;=yes")EV Developer's Corner(/url)
cool night air is curious

mrxak

In case anybody got the wrong impression, I just think that it would be a boring plug-in. Those that aren't mormon would probably not want to "play" it, and those that are would already know what's going to happen (I assume). If you're just trying to convert people, then I'd have to say that's silly, and a tiny bit freaky-scariness.

Kame

Quote

Originally posted by seant:
**I suspect that Mormons would be insulted by that statement, as they consider themselves followers of Christ (i.e. Christian).

Seant goes to poke at some gold tablets he hid in the basement.**

ha Actually, Christ is Greek for "Messiah" which means savior. As far as I know, Mormans don't believe that Jesus was the messiah so calling them Christians would be incorrect.

But I'm curious now. Is this just an anti-Mormon thing or is it really religion in general? I always felt that the "weaves" and "veil" used in Nova were fairly religious concepts. No one seems to be objecting to those. I ask mostly because the plug I've been working on all year is based heavily in Taoism. Mostly philosophical stuff but the "powers" you aquire are based on the Religious Taoism and your relationship with the Tao itself. I'll guess I'll just give you guys an example of the kind of context I generally use it in.

Quote

The Way and the ten thousand things
**Traveling from one end of the universe to the other is brutally long and spending most of that time thinking is only natural and inevitable. By the time you land on Kara you don't feel the need any longer to seek out Jun's advice as you sense your appreciation and understanding of the Tao increasing. But as it turns out, Jun is already here with another student and so you decide to at least greet her.

After they part you walk over to your teacher and you meet with a friendly hello and a hug. "So how was your trip?" asks Jun.

You tell her it went well although it was very long and exhausting, leaving out the general travel details. You go on though, to tell her about what happened to you on Valoria and the new ability you've seemed to acquire.

Jun almost seems disappointed when she hears your news. "Excellent," she exclaims, masking her feelings. "It seems you've learned to harness the matter and energy that surrounds all of us. As you continue your walk you will find more and more ways in which to manipulate that energy and with greater power and efficiency. I only ask that you keep it guarded and use it wisely. Our aim is to live in peace with our environment - not destroy it. Now I'm sorry to cut our meeting short but unless you have any questions I must be going. Remember this is not some new power that you have at your disposal. It is the result of your relationship with the Tao and you have a responsibility to respect that relationship.

"Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightenment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perseverance is a sign of willpower.
He who stays where he is endures.
To die but not to perish is to be eternally present."**

Perhaps not the greatest example but it'll do. I figure I'll finish the plug anyway because it's my project regardless of what others think but I'm interested to hear other opinions on the topic.

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((Ż'ˇ.¸(Ż'ˇ.¸Ť-KAME-ť¸.ˇ'´Ż)¸.ˇ'´Ż))
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Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

I would guess part of the difference is that there is no religion right now that allows you to manipulate psychic powers into 'weaves' capable of reading people's minds and destroying planets, while there are quite a few people who believe in Mormonism (and by extension other religions). There's a difference between something like the Resurrection from the Dead that Christians believe Jesus went through, and manipulating mental energies to form spacecraft around you: there are many who believe the former actually happened, while almost none who believe that the latter is possible at the present :p.

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 11-17-2003).)

liquid_doom

Nothing like settlin' down with some Lao Tzu and some EVN... keep it up Kame.

Still, I think there is a great deal of difference between characters adhering to the Tao and the verbatim religious stuff Kishkumen is thinking of. The Way and Ten Thousand Things works (from what little I've seen/read about it), because it isn't centered on relating a specific religious history (some argue that Taoism isn't a religion anyway, but that's a different argument), but rather a story that just happens to have a religious bent. When religion is the focus rather than a motivation, bad stuff can and does happen in the entertainment biz.

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Kame

Quote

Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
I would guess part of the difference is that there is no religion right now that allows you to manipulate psychic powers into 'weaves' capable of reading people's minds and destroying planets, while there are quite a few people who believe in Mormonism (and by extension other religions). There's a difference between something like the Resurrection from the Dead that Christians believe Jesus went through, and manipulating mental energies to form spacecraft around you: there are many who believe the former actually happened, while almost none who believe that the latter is possible at the present:p.

This is actually part of Religious Taoism though. Hence why I ask. Religious Taoism believes that it's possible to harness the energy around you. It's this belief that sparked yoga and accupuncture. Efforts to increase the flow of energy in your own body.

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((Ż'ˇ.¸(Ż'ˇ.¸Ť-KAME-ť¸.ˇ'´Ż)¸.ˇ'´Ż))
I used to jog but the ice kept falling out of my glass.
(url="http://"http://www.0three0.net/l-1551/")L 1551(/url) - The official site of RONIN and The Way and the ten thousand things

Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Indeed, you are correct. However, I don't think the game ever explicitly mentions 'weaves' or the Polaris 'chosen one' in terms of Taoism. There's also a very large gap between the personal energy increase that practitioners of yoga and acupuncture purport to experience, and actually doing something like mental murder, spaceflight, or even the Vell-os 'tap on the shoulder'.

As well, most practitioners of Taoism focus upon the more abstract, metaphysical elements of the philosophy. The weaves in EVN are very much a physical part of the world and a tool to be used in the manipulation of the physical universe.

------------------
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SpacePirate

Quote

Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**Indeed, you are correct. However, I don't think the game ever explicitly mentions 'weaves' or the Polaris 'chosen one' in terms of Taoism. There's also a very large gap between the personal energy increase that practitioners of yoga and acupuncture purport to experience, and actually doing something like mental murder, spaceflight, or even the Vell-os 'tap on the shoulder'.
**

If you take into consideration that Nova is set quite far in the future, imagine is a small group of Taoists left the planet early on in the age of Space Exploration, and began breeding themselves in order to achieve humans with the most energy, or chi. After many generations of such practice, and perhaps with some genetic engineering, the Vell-os race is quite possible. Read into the Foundation series, most notably when Second Foundation and Gaia are mentioned. Case in point.

Quote

Originally posted by liquid_doom:
**Nothing like settlin' down with some Lao Tzu and some EVN... keep it up Kame.

Still, I think there is a great deal of difference between characters adhering to the Tao and the verbatim religious stuff Kishkumen is thinking of. The Way and Ten Thousand Things works (from what little I've seen/read about it), because it isn't centered on relating a specific religious history (some argue that Taoism isn't a religion anyway, but that's a different argument), but rather a story that just happens to have a religious bent. When religion is the focus rather than a motivation, bad stuff can and does happen in the entertainment biz.
**

(url="http://"http://deoxy.org/taowley.htm")Read more(/url)! Taoism is less of a religion than it is a way of life. However, it is usually tied in with Buddhism, which is definitely a religion.

I foresee this turning into a religion discussion, as is in accordance with the prophecy. Meh.
~ SpacePirate

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Eat blazing electric death!

mrxak

Quote

Originally posted by Kame:
But I'm curious now. Is this just an anti-Mormon thing or is it really religion in general? I always felt that the "weaves" and "veil" used in Nova were fairly religious concepts. No one seems to be objecting to those. I ask mostly because the plug I've been working on all year is based heavily in Taoism. Mostly philosophical stuff but the "powers" you aquire are based on the Religious Taoism and your relationship with the Tao itself. I'll guess I'll just give you guys an example of the kind of context I generally use it in.

For me, it's the fact that he wants to turn a religious text into a plug-in. I wouldn't care if it was the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or any other book out there. I just see it as completely pointless.

Religion is fine in any EV scenario. However, it shouldn't be the entire point of a plug-in, and it shouldn't be so obvious.

He still hasn't responded back yet, so we don't know for sure what he's trying to do with it.

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Book of Mormon plug-in