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    • Balance between ship classes

       EV Developer's Corner
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      I was wondering why fighters and carriers in the Escape Velocity series seem so weak in comparison to other ships. I think I have an idea of why this is usually so.

      •Fighters (let's say during WWII) were designed to do two things: take out other fighters (this does happen in EV) and take out bombers. However, Fighters are sent off to kill capital ships in EV, which doesn't seem right and usually ends in bad results.

      •Secondly, since EV is 2D game, it gives more advantages to the capital ship because fighters are more easily hit.

      •Finally, inherit game limitations make large scale battles with large number of carriers impractical.

      I propose that we introduce a new ship class: bombers. This isn't that revolutionary of idea, but it could make games a lot more interesting. A bomber is a small craft designed to take out ships of a capital ship type. However, making an actual bomber is easier said than done. It could have a really powerful weapon, but that could imbalance the game. Another idea is to make capital ship cannons really inaccurate so that they can't reliably hit anything other than another capital ship.

      What do you think?

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      "The difference between theory and reality is often quite great..."

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      I don't really think the idea of bombers really translates to space...

      And nowadays, fighters can take on capital ships. A missile, if it hits in the right place, does enough damage easily. In EVN, weapons are severely downpowered relative to defense, which is reasonable since dying that easily would suck. However, if a ship could really survive a nuclear explosion (EMP torp), you could probably drive it through a small star and survive. I don't care how advanced it is, that is just absurd.

      (edit)And multiple tons of explosives--especially since weapons develop somewhat faster than defenses--would annihalate anything. Perhaps the solution would be to make missles much more powerful, but more expensive, massive, and much less common.(/edit)

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      (This message has been edited by Sheer_falacy (edited 11-03-2002).)

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      Frankly, I consider several ships to be "bombers" already. The pirate thunderhead, for instance, is very well armed, but slower than a normal fighter and weaker than a capital ship. Now prehaps you might say that it is merely a heavy fighter, but isn't that really like a bomber?

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      (This message has been edited by mrxak (edited 11-03-2002).)

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      Quote

      Originally posted by mrxak:
      **Frankly, I consider several ships to be "bombers" already. The pirate thunderhead, for instance, is very well armed, but slower than a normal fighter and weaker than a capital ship. Now prehaps you might say that it is merely a heavy fighter, but isn't that really like a bomber?

      **

      Absolutely. The heavy fighters (I am thinking particular the Voinians of EVO but the Thunderhead is also an excellent example) are expensive and slow but they have weapons scaled to do damage to capitol ships. The skip bomber and the torpedo boat fulfilled a similar historical niche. In general you are talking a half-dozen shots, and only enough other firepower to finish off a mortally wounded target. The trade-offs should be lack of close-in weapons and the manueverability to defend against conventional fighters.

      If the AI was smarter we could truly do a multi-composition force, including screening vessles, destroyers that run in for a few shots then run out, capitol ships that like to close in to slug it out, and so forth.

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      "I know the stranger's name."
      Turandot

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      Well, the AI in Nova can already do several of those things. Certain AI behaviors such as "Standoff attacks", "Ships swarm", and the Defend escort command (and subsequent behavior), can be well adapted to many fleet-style tactics.

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      Quote

      Originally posted by mrxak:
      **Well, the AI in Nova can already do several of those things. Certain AI behaviors such as "Standoff attacks", "Ships swarm", and the Defend escort command (and subsequent behavior), can be well adapted to many fleet-style tactics.

      **

      Mmmm. I can see, too, potential in giving a ship class a couple of big, short-range missiles, a high speed and a high cowardice. It would run in rashly, rake the large ships with fire, and as soon as it was hit by anything it would peel off and withdraw from the field. Drat. One more good reason to port my plug to Nova.

      Say...I wonder if you could use allies to make preferential targets? Aka if the bombers are are enemies of capitol ships only, and allies with the escort (who is enemy with only the other side's fighter screen)? I'm trying to see a way around the situation where a torpodo bomber races after the first enemy fighter it sees and throws away the capitol-ship scaled weapons on that small target. Wonder if there's a simpler way in Nova....

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      "I know the stranger's name."
      Turandot

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      The Rapier was pretty much a bomber. I was having a little go at EV original for purposes of nostalgia today, and I took out a couple of corvettes without any trouble flying a Rapier. The confed missile boat was also a kind of attempt at a bomber too.

      The thing you really need to be able to do is to prioritize targets. Like say that the bombers or whatever you want to call them attack capital ships, interceptors and smaller fighters go for other fighters and enemy bombers and so on. It'd take a bit of programming.

      ~A~

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      "How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

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      I feel the need to put in my two cents.

      EVN, used creatively enough, can handle fleet tactics. Standoff attacks and ships swarm, used right, really effect the flow of battles. In my upcoming Robotech TC (resurrected with new help), I used the planet ship field to make to classes of ships: fighters and capital ships. The fighters can't normally hit the capitals, and vice versa, except with a few different cross-over weapons. Battles look very much like WWII fleet tactics and especially like Robotech fleet tactics- Two capital ships will square off, launch a bunch of fighters who proceed to swarm between them, and pound away at each other with their big guns. The fighters, meanwhile, blast eachother and missiles aimed at the ship they are protecting, a worthwile service, while blissfully ignoring the huge particle-beams of the capital ships blasting right over them. Finally, one ship is specifically a bomber- It's a very heavy fighter, armed with free-fall bombs that can damage capital ships. It all works very well.

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      ~Charlie
      "Even the Buddha
      despaired of saving
      women" ~Takuan

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      Yeah, I think fighters were handled badly in the EV AI, and have been much improved in EVN.

      I've also noticed the thing about the power of the Rapier. It's quite a capable ship, even when going up against the Kestrel. I've also found squadrons of Lightnings to be horrendously dangerous (I once had my six Lightning escorts take out a Confed Frigate in 0.7824 seconds before I could hit 'V').

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      Quote

      Originally posted by Masamune:
      I used the planet ship field to make to classes of ships: fighters and capital ships. <snip>

      That's a really cool idea.

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      Robotech? Crazy AI manipulation? All in one plug? This I gotta get!

      -Waits on edge of seat-

      Very smart...

      ~A~

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      "How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

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      Thanks for the complements.

      We are making progress on it, bit by bit... I think I'm going to have to make a second targetting sight that pisses of capital ships though. The big ships seem reluctant to launch their fighters in 1.2, since they can't damage other capital ships. It'll all work in the end, I'm sure. Once someone has let loose their fighters it all works great. I could just make the fighter bays first-trigger weapons, I guess- that would force the AI's hand.... Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

      <Shameless plug>Check the Add-on files link from Ambrosia. There is a website for the project- It may even get updated now that the project is a go again</shameless plug>

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      ~Charlie
      "Even the Buddha
      despaired of saving
      women" ~Takuan

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