Centuries have passed since EV Nova time. The war among the 3 major kingdoms has long since ended, and each one has pulled back, prefering to advance it's own respective technology. The species evolve, and evolve, and evolve, until only the federation is remotely human (due to their more human surroundings), whereas the polaris become become almost entirely robotic, as their bodies had deteriorated due to a massive virus unleashed by the Federation towards the end of the war. The aurorans became reptelian, and their technology remains primitive. Then the peace is disrupted, as major federation, auroran, and polaron systems are attacked by unknown forces. It seems they found the Kontik probe, and decided the human race was a threat. They had waited for the moment to strike, and now that moment has come. Auroran, Polaron, and Federation forces must band together to repel these unidentified invaders.

Comments?

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Do not mock me or I will send endless waves of small furry animals at you!

How can the aurorans, who are human, evolve into reptiles? That's more of a de-evolution.

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
**How can the aurorans, who are human, evolve into reptiles? That's more of a de-evolution.

Matrix

**

Sorta humanoid reptalian. And still relatively intelligent,

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Do not mock me or I will send endless waves of small furry animals at you!

(quote)Originally posted by Revolution Kevin:
**(QUOTE)Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
(b)How can the aurorans, who are human, evolve into reptiles? That's more of a de-evolution.

Matrix

**(/quote)

Interesting story. However, how can Aurorans as a whole "evolve" the same way consider evolution occurs because of a species' living environment, and as we all know, all Aurorans, just like Polarans and Feds, live on different planets and assumed to have different environments. I like the part on the probe though, I myself came up with a storyline which revolves around the probe but never got around to make a plug

Just in case you are interested (too bad even if you are not ), my idea was somewhat similar to yours except it takes place in present time in Nova and immediately after you return to Earth after dropping off the probe in Kontic. To sum up, Jerry O'Donnell informs you that the probe sent back some interesting info which led to you, with the aid of Polarans since neither the Fed nor the Aurorans would help, discovering an ancient map which indicates the location of an "alien hypergate" in the system next to Kontic. The discovery of the alien hypergate intrigued both the Fed & Aurorans and while they found over it, you & the Polarans jump into the gate by accident to escape the battle. By jumping into the gate, you discover an alien race who appears friendly who take you home and intend to conquer the human space therefore uniting Feds, Aurorans & Polarans.

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(This message has been edited by kulong (edited 05-30-2002).)

Evolution takes millenia, not centuries. It is extremely extremely extremely extremely rare for complex creatures like humans to evolve quickly. Let's face it, there have been thousands of years of recorded human history, yet we haven't seen anything but the most minor of evolution over that time period, certainly not from ape-like to reptile-like. We've seen small things like the size of the braincase, stature, and bone size change over the what, 100,000 years of human existance, but literally millions of years for major changes (ie. bacteria to plants, reptiles to birds, etc.) And if it takes that long, then why would there still be "race" distinctions?

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

And why assume evolution is purely biological? After all, Sentience is a wildcard
in ordinary evolution; traditionally, survivability is based on mutations that allow
adaption to random threats. Evolution aims for physical adaptability.

However, as sentient and tool-using beings, we no longer NEED to physically adapt.
Genetic diseases, instead of being weeded out, are allowed to survive. We breed, not
for physical survivability but for mental capabilities. We actually work to stop
physical evolution, creating "ideal enviornments" in the ocean, or tropics, or
arctic, or space...

Does this mean evolution ceases? Not at all. It only suggests that we're changing
the game. The evolution of ideas moves faster than the evolution of physical
characteristics -- and allows greater survivability.

If you like evolution, read the books by Richard Dawkins...

WS

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Hey lets face it, this isn't real life, a mutagenic virus was released accidentaly on the auroran worlds, and due to the immense amount of trade almost all of their plannets werer infected, it caused untold numbers of deaths and the survivors found themselves as giantintellegent Komodo dragons...

Sounds fun, but my ideas better, think TC plug, three groups two human one alien, now think why am i here? Who realy cares?

What?

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Beware of monkeys bearing pins,

Coz the grenade is never far behind

Sweeping all evolutionary issues aside, I have a continuity problem with your storyline. Although you have a somewhat reasonable explanation for their change, it doesn't feel right for the Polarans to become mechanical. If you look at the culture in Nova, and the way it has been heading since its inception, Polarans are, if anything, going to become more biological. They already have biological ships. To have them become mechanical seems like you're forcing the story down a path to which it doesn't naturally flow.

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Man is a slow, sloppy, and brilliant thinker; the machine is fast, accurate and stupid.
-William M. Kelly

Quote

Originally posted by A J Bob:
**Hey lets face it, this isn't real life, a mutagenic virus was released accidentaly on the auroran worlds, and due to the immense amount of trade almost all of their plannets werer infected, it caused untold numbers of deaths and the survivors found themselves as giantintellegent Komodo dragons...

Sounds fun, but my ideas better, think TC plug, three groups two human one alien, now think why am i here? Who realy cares?

What?

**

Well, just don't confuse phenotype with genotype. The survivor's children might become Komodo dragons. Few of the processes of embryonic development have analogues in the adult; there is simply no way for ordinary DNA to instruct healthy, living cells to suddenly pull up roots and migrate to some other part of the body. The information is simply not there. No cell "knows" it is part of a left ankle, nor can it be told it is now a left wing-tip.

Even if such transformation were possible, the transitional stages are almost certainly non-viable (here we are, capilliaries in the lung tissue now told to migrate to the neck and become part of a gill slit. The body had better get used to not breathing for a few months!)

So your virus would do better effecting only haploid cells (reproductive tissue). There is a certain elegance in this as a weapon; if designed carefully there would be few adult fatalities, indeed, with the viability of future generations assured there could be no charge of genocide.

Still, no matter how hard the adults tried (one can imagine a classroom full of young Komodo dragons perched uncomfortably on their wooden school desks) their society and behavior patterns, indeed their culture itself, could not continue. In all likelyhood there would be a massive crash as social organizations, markets, everything came apart. Then, within the next generations, the dragons would build up their own culture, society, governmental forms, technologies, arts.

I wouldn't advise it as a war strategy, however. If the Aurorans were a threat to begin with, then they have the sophistication to track down whoever did it. And with their children taken from them and the adults facing death as a species, they are not going to be in a mood for compromise...

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"I know the stranger's name."
Turandot

All very good points. However,
1. I never said the Aurorans had a virus let loose on them. That was the Polarons. 2. Fine. Millinia.
3. I could say that the Federation began to evolve too, but the people in charge were such fanatics that they rushed to prevent such evolution. How one would do this is beyond me, but science could have improved to that point.

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Do not mock me or I will send endless waves of small furry animals at you!

Quote

Originally posted by kulong:
**Interesting story. However, how can Aurorans as a whole "evolve" the same way consider evolution occurs because of a species' living environment, and as we all know, all Aurorans, just like Polarans and Feds, live on different planets and assumed to have different environments. I like the part on the probe though, I myself came up with a storyline which revolves around the probe but never got around to make a plug:p

Just in case you are interested (too bad even if you are not :p), my idea was somewhat similar to yours except it takes place in present time in Nova and immediately after you return to Earth after dropping off the probe in Kontic. To sum up, Jerry O'Donnell informs you that the probe sent back some interesting info which led to you, with the aid of Polarans since neither the Fed nor the Aurorans would help, discovering an ancient map which indicates the location of an "alien hypergate" in the system next to Kontic. The discovery of the alien hypergate intrigued both the Fed & Aurorans and while they found over it, you & the Polarans jump into the gate by accident to escape the battle. By jumping into the gate, you discover an alien race who appears friendly who take you home and intend to conquer the human space therefore uniting Feds, Aurorans & Polarans.

**

So? We live in different parts of the world, and we are still relatively the same.

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Do not mock me or I will send endless waves of small furry animals at you!

Quote

Originally posted by Revolution Kevin:
**So? We live in different parts of the world, and we are still relatively the same.

**

Exactly. And that is precisely why I am REALLY skeptical about your evolution backstory. It'd take too damn long for a group of ape-like humans to evolve into a lizard-like race. Think about it: it took 100-some-odd-thousand years to evolve from tree dwelling apes to the current Homo Sapiens form. While there have been tiny evolutionary changes, africans who live in the tropics have darker skin to protect from the sun, asians have been selectively breeding for thousands of years to produce smarter children, etc.

Another problem is that reptiles are much older on the evolutionary chain than humans. I mean, MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH older. Dinosaurs were reptilian (but transitioning to birds), and they were 170 MILLION years ago. The Aurorans would have to de-evolve onto a completely separate evolutionary track. Realistically, unless there's some genetic engineering going on, it's unlikely that they'd ever get to reptiles.

Let's say that there's some drastic change in the Auroran environment, and the stresses of changing from one environment to another accelerates the evolution of the group. It'd take maybe 200,000 years (and that's really pushing it) for them to become "reptilian." Why would the Auroran race even exist? The Federation would probably help out the Aurorans (they're not genocidal), preventing such a change, and reintegrating the Auroran culture into the Federation.

Revolution Kevin, to save yourself from the abuse of evolutionary discussion, I'd just suggest to make a whole new universe with a bionic race, a "human" race, and a reptilian race. Just scrap Nova, and make a TC.

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Quote

Originally posted by Revolution Kevin:
**So? We live in different parts of the world, and we are still relatively the same.
**

Actually, if you observe a little more carefully, we are not the same at all. We might all have a brain (some have less...), two lungs, and hands, but there are still many biological differences. For example, Asians lacking some sort of gene which cause us to get drunk from alcohol faster and easier than caucasians.

Even so, as you've said, we live in different parts of the world, but it's still the same world. In the Nova universe, a governmental group, the Aurorans for example, has people on many different worlds in different part of the universe with different environments. It's impossible for all these people to "evolve" naturally into the same thing.

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Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
While there have been tiny evolutionary changes, africans who live in the tropics have darker skin to protect from the sun, asians have been selectively breeding for thousands of years to produce smarter children, etc.

I don't know if it has ever been proven scientifically that Asians are genetically smarter than caucasians and blacks. But being an Asian, I must admit that there's a probability that we are smarter on average due to our culture rather than our genes. In Asian cultures, at least the Chinese, Japanese & Korean ones, parents tend to push their children to their extreme, academically wise and sometimes artistically. So that might be a factor.

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Quote

Originally posted by kulong:
**Actually, if you observe a little more carefully, we are not the same at all. We might all have a brain (some have less...), two lungs, and hands, but there are still many biological differences. For example, Asians lacking some sort of gene which cause us to get drunk from alcohol faster and easier than caucasians.

**

Heh. Lactose intolerance.... Well, I'm not sure if it's genetic, but I know it stems from the environment. Europeans in general drink more milk than Asians (especially Japanese). Well, I guess that I can only speak for Japanese, but I know that they just don't have the land to raise cows (island nation = limited space), so they don't have much milk, and beef is rare and is generally reserved for special occasions.

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Quote

Originally posted by kulong:
**I don't know if it has ever been proven scientifically that Asians are genetically smarter than caucasians and blacks. But being an Asian, I must admit that there's a probability that we are smarter on average due to our culture rather than our genes. In Asian cultures, at least the Chinese, Japanese & Korean ones, parents tend to push their children to their extreme, academically wise and sometimes artistically. So that might be a factor.

**

Actually, I heard that rich asian families tend to breed with each other, and they like to have smart, beautiful sons and daughters breed so they can have smart(er), (more) beautiful sons and daughters. The cultural trait of an obsession towards academics probably can be traced (either to or from) this "selective breeding" of really smart people. I'm not saying that non-asians aren't smart (there are a lot of people who aren't asian that are smarter than me), it's just that Asians seem to try to breed smart people.

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
**
**

We would do well not to let this devolve into a discussion on race. Such things have destroyed lesser boards.

From a strictly biological veiwpoint humanity is all of one species; less diverse than Darwin's finches. Reptiles are not just of a different species; they are a different Order and Class, and diverged from us back in the Paleozoic; some 300 million years ago. They are oviparous and poikilothermic, and Edgar Rice Burrough's Red Martians notwithstanding, these are major functional changes.

Or did you simply mean they are humans with scales (like some Star Trek aliens)? Putting aside discussion of why scales could be a poor adaptation for a human being, the Cro-magnon of 50,000 years ago, shaved and in a Brooks Brothers suit, could sit across a table from you and not be identified. The brow ridge of Neandertal would stand out in a crowd (except perhaps at a soccer match) but one has to reach back some 500,000 years to find a human ancestor that could truly be considered to look "alien." No discussion of the diversity of modern humanity can come close to the time scales and divergencies needed to as much as put Klingon brow ridges on a human.

I am surprised, however, that no-one has brought up that old SF standby; intentional genetic engineering for adaptation to planetary environments. Belly-walking, lateral-limbed lizard shapes might be a functional adaptation to a high-G environment. Scales might even be defensible as protection from toxins or UV radiation. Oviparosity has obvious survival benefits, as it dissipates the birth pressures on mother and newborn created by our own high-mass, highly-developed but still helpless offspring. Poiklitothermia (cold-blooded-ness) is a little harder reach, but many arguments have been made that the rulers of the so-called "Age of Reptiles" were in fact primitive birds and homeothermic like us.

I wouldn't volunteer for such a course for my offspring. It seems more likely such adaptations would be imposed ("slave race," et al). And given both the engineering and the purpose, it makes more sense to start with a completly functional reptiloid, like the long-lived and powerful crocodile, (Class Crocodila, in fact, not a reptile at all) and breed or engineer for human-scale intelligence...

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"I know the stranger's name."
Turandot

Quote

Originally posted by Commander Arashi:
I am surprised, however, that no-one has brought up that old SF standby; intentional genetic engineering for adaptation to planetary environments. Belly-walking, lateral-limbed lizard shapes might be a functional adaptation to a high-G environment. Scales might even be defensible as protection from toxins or UV radiation. Oviparosity has obvious survival benefits, as it dissipates the birth pressures on mother and newborn created by our own high-mass, highly-developed but still helpless offspring. Poiklitothermia (cold-blooded-ness) is a little harder reach, but many arguments have been made that the rulers of the so-called "Age of Reptiles" were in fact primitive birds and homeothermic like us.

I did, kinda. Wait. I re-read my posts. I didn't. Anyway, the suggestion that would effectively end this discussion is to simply make a TC with various alien races. No aurorans, no federation, no polarans. Just make humans, a reptilian race, and cyborg race. Make up your own backstory since that's what'd need to happen anyway. Since the evolutionary processes that we're talking about span millions of years, it is highly unlikely that anything will be the same as it "was" in Nova. Just make new races and do it as a TC, rather than just an addon.

Matrix

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"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
**Heh. Lactose intolerance.... Well, I'm not sure if it's genetic, but I know it stems from the environment. Europeans in general drink more milk than Asians (especially Japanese). Well, I guess that I can only speak for Japanese, but I know that they just don't have the land to raise cows (island nation = limited space), so they don't have much milk, and beef is rare and is generally reserved for special occasions.

Matrix

**

Exactly, therefore we are the way we are because of our environment. So it'd be impossible for ALL Aurorans to change into the same thing when they live on different worlds with different environments

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Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
**Actually, I heard that rich asian families tend to breed with each other, and they like to have smart, beautiful sons and daughters breed so they can have smart(er), (more) beautiful sons and daughters. The cultural trait of an obsession towards academics probably can be traced (either to or from) this "selective breeding" of really smart people. I'm not saying that non-asians aren't smart (there are a lot of people who aren't asian that are smarter than me), it's just that Asians seem to try to breed smart people.

Matrix

**

Hahaha... Matrix, I don't know if you're Asian or not but I am... and I must say, that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. This "selective breeding" you're speaking of isn't part of the Asian culture. We don't measure a potential mate's IQ before we marry. As I said, unless there's scientific prove that Asians breed smarter children, I still believe it's all due to the culture of pushing one's child or children to their extreme.

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