I can see you all warming up your flame-throwers and preparing to flame me out of existence. Please don't. At least not until you read my post....

First of all, this is not a request for Ambrosia to make another EV game. Ambrosia clearly stated that it does not intend to make any more EVs and any further EV development must come from us, it's fans. What I'm suggesting is that a few dedicated fans with some programing experience and artistic talent, as well writing ability, get together and attempt to make a EV MMORPG.

MMORPGs are a class of games pitifully under represented on the mac (I can think of only two: Lineage and Clan Lord), and it seems like there would be a large market for Mac MMORPGs. Also, EV would translate perfectly into MMORPG form, due to it's open ended plot line and it's broad universe. Yet I've only heard of one attempt to make an EV MMORPG, and that was quite a while ago. I'm sure If a few of us got together and put in some effort, we could have another super cool MMORPG for the mac.

I usually don't like working in teams, especially over the internet. But this is a project I couldn't possibly take on by myself due to it's complexity and my total lack of programing ability. However if I could assemble the following people we might be able to pull it off:

1. Talented programmer: Someone with enough skill to write code for an MMORPG, and possibly even OpenGL or some other form of 3d.
2. Artist: I have some artistic talent, but I also have a life outside my computer. A second (talented) artist would be a great asset to the project.
3. Writer: Again, I have some ability in this field, but a second writer would be nice.

I'm sure at least a few of you fit these descriptions, or know people who do.

I know this sounds like a hopeless endeavor, but there's plenty of demand for it and I'm sure at least a few of you share my dream for multiplayer EV

Feel free to flame me now.

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(/mindless babble)

• Anatole attempts to suppress his laughter.
  One programmer?

Quote

The guy above:
I usually don't like working in teams, especially over the internet. But this is a project I couldn't possibly take on by myself due to it's complexity and my total lack of programing ability. However if I could assemble the following people we might be able to pull it off:

Your lack of skills is what stops you from realising just how huge this task his. It's a waste of time, man.

Anatole.

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Not all angels have halos. - QW12

(This message has been edited by Anatole (edited 03-24-2002).)

I dare you to try.

Have you any idea of what coding would be needed for such a project?
Or have you ever even tried coding at all?

I've dabbled at coding, and i don't even want to think of what would be needed for such a project.

Sorry, i can't help.

<Edit: Wait, i remember once there was a guy who asked to do this. You might want to do a search and see if you can find that topic, and then email that guy>
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It's time for a new challenge.
(url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/benedwards/.cv/benedwards/Public/Ares1.2/StarsAreFire%3AC4.sit-binhex.hqx")The Stars Are Fire(/url)-A TC for Ares
...And so the human race reached for the stars, unknowing of the dangers that awaited them...

(This message has been edited by Skyfox (edited 03-24-2002).)

Not to mention the resources needed just to keep the servers running...and on a fast line...the scope of that project would need major backing I think

The requirements would rather be:

10 programers (including networking specialists, etc...)
4 3d artists
4 writers at least
the money to pay them (i doubt anyone would sacrifice so much time without getting paid.
the money to rent or buy A LOT of server comps
the money for the server programs
enough time

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Pesmo's Profile Refresh no. 11:
Brace for impact, I am back .

Quote

Originally posted by pesimist_guy:
**The requirements would rather be:

10 programers (including networking specialists, etc...)
4 3d artists
4 writers at least
the money to pay them (i doubt anyone would sacrifice so much time without getting paid.
the money to rent or buy A LOT of server comps
the money for the server programs
enough time
**

LOL, you're as bad the other direction as the original guy was in wanting only 1 programmer. This project wouldn't take 10 programmers, more like 3-4. Why only 3-4? Because you'd write it for OS X only and you'd realize sockets kicks the crap out of open transport and you'd spend about 85% less time on network code.

You'd need only 1 or 2 artists and a copy of Bryce or Vue for graphics of EVN's quality, and you'd need 0.5 writers. Why so few writers? Because it would be idiotic to try to script complex stories into a EV-online, that's what game admins are for and that's what other players are for.

As far as hardware goes, you'd need a mediocre server box and people with clients to do your development. Once you get the game in a state where i can be shown to a publisher, you'll get your monetary backing for server operations.

It isn't a matter of finding a team of EV enthusiasts to put a game like EV-online together, you just won't find the talent for a project like that on a volunteer basis. But, it certainly isn't insurmountable and should be easier by a factor of 10 than doing something truly epic like Shadowbane or Neverwinter Nights.

Quote

Originally posted by AlanCE:
**LOL, you're as bad the other direction as the original guy was in wanting only 1 programmer. This project wouldn't take 10 programmers, more like 3-4. Why only 3-4? Because you'd write it for OS X only and you'd realize sockets kicks the crap out of open transport and you'd spend about 85% less time on network code.

You'd need only 1 or 2 artists and a copy of Bryce or Vue for graphics of EVN's quality, and you'd need 0.5 writers. Why so few writers? Because it would be idiotic to try to script complex stories into a EV-online, that's what game admins are for and that's what other players are for.

As far as hardware goes, you'd need a mediocre server box and people with clients to do your development. Once you get the game in a state where i can be shown to a publisher, you'll get your monetary backing for server operations.

It isn't a matter of finding a team of EV enthusiasts to put a game like EV-online together, you just won't find the talent for a project like that on a volunteer basis. But, it certainly isn't insurmountable and should be easier by a factor of 10 than doing something truly epic like Shadowbane or Neverwinter Nights.**

Thank you prophet AlanCE, for sharing the brilliant light of your wisdom with an ignorant little ferret like me.

I am expecting your EV MMORPG with great eagerness and I am looking foward to see it become the mac game of the year 2003. I'm sure that every publisher will immediately give you their guarantee for massive monetary support as soon as you send them a copy of this remarkable post. I am also pleased to learn that Bryce or Vue can easily outmatch the rendering engine of Lightwave 3d and I am immeadiately going to send a letter to the many famous studios and independents that use that product to tell them that they should stop investing in such crappy software and immeadiately get their copy of Vue.

Its good to knowthat you have discovered how to split writers in two, too.

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Pesmo's Profile Refresh no. 11:
Brace for impact, I am back .

(This message has been edited by pesimist_guy (edited 03-24-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by pesimist_guy:
**
Thank you prophet AlanCE, for sharing the brilliant light of your wisdom with an ignorant little ferret like me.

I am expecting your EV MMORPG with great eagerness and I am looking foward to see it become the mac game of the year 2003. I'm sure that every publisher will immediately give you their guarantee for massive monetary support as soon as you send them a copy of this remarkable post. I am also pleased to learn that Bryce or Vue can easily outmatch the rendering engine of Lightwave 3d and I am immeadiately going to send a letter to the many famous studios and independents that use that product to tell them that they should stop investing in such crappy software and immeadiately get their copy of Vue.

Its good to knowthat you have discovered how to split writers in two, too.
**

Ah yes, the typical response from someone who a) doesn't have any experience in the software industry, and doesn't really read a post before going off and sounding like a complete turd. You did read the parts where I said it was not something for a volunteer group to attempt, but it -is- a doable project for a small team of professionals?

As far as graphics apps go, if you'll take a good look at EV's graphics you'll note that every 3D item, be it a ship or outfit, is small. We're not talkig about full-screen 3D scenes, it isn't the next Star Wars movie. The point was that you don't have to have the high-end gfx apps to do EV models, as the vast majority of the plug-ins for EV and EVO will show you. If I recall correctly, the first two EVs used Bryce for their planet/system art, so don't scoff at that idea.

I'm sure I'm wasting my breath/fingers by even attempting to help you understand my first post. You obviously intentionally misrepresented it with your last post and would prefer to speculate on the absurd idea of half-people than the point that was being made.

Quote

Originally posted by AlanCE:
**
As far as graphics apps go, if you'll take a good look at EV's graphics you'll note that every 3D item, be it a ship or outfit, is small. We're not talkig about full-screen 3D scenes, it isn't the next Star Wars movie. The point was that you don't have to have the high-end gfx apps to do EV models, as the vast majority of the plug-ins for EV and EVO will show you. If I recall correctly, the first two EVs used Bryce for their planet/system art, so don't scoff at that idea.
**

Oh, sorry if i have offended, you mister industry-god... But what are you banging about with small 3d items and Star wars ??!
I am just telling you that Lightwave has an very powerful rendering engine and that you could never get the quality of the artwork in EVN (except for the landscapes that were indeed done in bryce) with Vue or Bryce, even if the items were microscopic ! The quality of the rendering that a product offers and the size of the models are two very different things. This proves YOU dont know anything about the 'industry'.

And BTW, yes, I know, one can always do everything with a small team of professionals (like you are I am sure), the thing is, we are on an amateur plug-in makers board, not in your professional team of industry specialists' briefing room f! And afterall, I don't know if either Matt, nor Ambrosia would like to see an EV MMORPG come out without an extra (and very hypotetical) permission from their side !

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Pesmo's Profile Refresh no. 11:
Brace for impact, I am back .

Quote

Originally posted by AlanCE:
**Ah yes, the typical response from someone who a) doesn't have any experience in the software industry, and doesn't really read a post before going off and sounding like a complete turd. You did read the parts where I said it was not something for a volunteer group to attempt, but it -is- a doable project for a small team of professionals?

As far as graphics apps go, if you'll take a good look at EV's graphics you'll note that every 3D item, be it a ship or outfit, is small. We're not talkig about full-screen 3D scenes, it isn't the next Star Wars movie. The point was that you don't have to have the high-end gfx apps to do EV models, as the vast majority of the plug-ins for EV and EVO will show you. If I recall correctly, the first two EVs used Bryce for their planet/system art, so don't scoff at that idea.

I'm sure I'm wasting my breath/fingers by even attempting to help you understand my first post. You obviously intentionally misrepresented it with your last post and would prefer to speculate on the absurd idea of half-people than the point that was being made.**

Your expertise in this field seems pretty decisive, AlanCE.

As for you, Captain LeGrenadier, I have to say that I agree totally with the people who say that 1 programmer is way too little. I would never pretend to be a massively brilliant programmer but I do know enough to say that a game as complex as an EV-based MORPG would require a lot of man-hours.

I also get the feeling that a project started by someone who has 'some artistic ability', some writing ability and a 'total lack of programming ability' not to mention who 'usually don't like working in teams'. It's not going to work unless it is the programmer who proposes it I fear...

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(url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url)
What I lack in enthusiasm I make up for in laziness.

This discussion has become irrelevant, we (AlanCE and I) have both presented arguments that should be considered. Im sorry , I've really been too agressive. But to come back to your project Cpt. LeGrenadier, consider all variables and make sure you have all guarantees before starting such project, otherwise it could well end like so many too ambitious projects, I mean it wouldn't end up at all.

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Pesmo's Profile Refresh no. 11:
Brace for impact, I am back .

Look EV MP has been discussed, and everyone spews alot of crap about it and bitches and flames. Just stop it. It would not take 10 programmers. 10 programers is way to damn much for any project, they get in one another's way. 3-4 is more realistic, but you really dont seem to understand how much a single motivated programer can do. some of the best software is writen by a single coder. If one good coder, sufficently monitary motivated, was to set out on this project, it may take a while, but it is entirely possible (witness software such as X-Plane, an absolutely phenominal peice of software.) But a small number of good programers, one, mabey two, good 3d artists (remember this doesn't have to be thousands of systems, hundreds of ships and outfits, etc. Even the number of ships/Outfits in EV clasic may be to much). And the writing does not even have to approach being spectacular. When it comes on down to it, it is entirely possible, wouln't approach being the hardest game to code ever, or anything like that.

The problem lies in monitary motivation. This wouldn't be a weekend project. It would take time, something which most good programers have in relitively short supply. While it wouldn't be a fulltime job, if you are a great programer, chances are that you have a great (high paying) job. Thus it followes that you could probably make more money by working overtime at your regular job.

When it comes on down to it, I doubt anyone will ever make a specific ev multiplayer game. Something like it may be made, but for a multiplayer, mac only 2-d space shooter, there is probably just not enough incentives for anyone to develop it.
Joe

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Quote

Originally posted by jdh545:
**When it comes on down to it, I doubt anyone will ever make a specific ev multiplayer game. Something like it may be made, but for a multiplayer, mac only 2-d space shooter, there is probably just not enough incentives for anyone to develop it.
Joe
**

Sad but true I suppose.

I like this topic - it shows how mature the people on this board in general are. You've managed to have a reasoned debate, and nobody's really done any flaming. It's very impressive - point me to ANY topic on Banter and Brawl with this level of maturity

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(url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url)
What I lack in enthusiasm I make up for in laziness.

My first reaction upon re-reading this thread was "What the hell was I on last night!?". You're all right of corse. This would be a massive undertaking, and my estimates where unrealistic. I guess it's just an impossible dream after all...

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(/mindless babble)

rough guess: imagine atleast 1000 items (ships, shots, missiles...) flying around in one system, each requiring about 16 bytes of information (location, type, direction...).
those would have to be updated about 30 times per second, which means each player needs to have T3+.

the concept of an EV mmorpg just wouldn't work out, though programming such a thing would be a minor problem.

Quote

Originally posted by not_registered:
**rough guess: imagine atleast 1000 items (ships, shots, missiles...) flying around in one system, each requiring about 16 bytes of information (location, type, direction...).
those would have to be updated about 30 times per second, which means each player needs to have T3+.

the concept of an EV mmorpg just wouldn't work out, though programming such a thing would be a minor problem.**

Do you think quake 3 or unreal tournament or Diablo relays the information regarding the exact position and action of every object in the gameworld every frame? No, you use the client to make best guesses as to where something is going to go and only send Keyframes updating the actual information based on th players ping. one would not need a T3. If properly coded, a 56k could handle it,( just a bit laggy though.)

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(url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/thorprime")NovaBurst Home(/url)

sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm not registered so i cant start a new topic. I made a plug for the gefjon system that does more than just remove the cheap opals (moves planets farther apart, adds pirates, etc) I'd like a few ppl to test it and email me suggestions or comments before i upload it to ambrosia

You can download it from my idisk: (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/benstillershow/FileSharing1.html")http://homepage.mac....leSharing1.html(/url)

Thanks in advance,
benstillershow

Quote

Originally posted by ThorPrime:
**If properly coded, a 56k could handle it,( just a bit laggy though.)

**

It's all about the compression, baby. : ) I remember reading that id had come up with an improved compression algorithm for network packets, and as a direct result, the game became playable with much higher pings than were feasible before. Of course, the trick is that compression is a rather intricate field, requiring much skill, talent, and caffeine.

--Nathan

Well, Matt burch has already written code for a networkable space shooter (exobattle) which is avalable to the public. Perhaps a skilled coder or team of coders could use that as a starting point for an EV MMORPG.

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(/mindless babble)

You can use a distributed architecture, instead of a simple Clients/server architecture, it is far more adapted to MMORPG games. I already got the schematics of such an architecture and can help writing the algorithms.

Advantages;
The bandwidth usage is shared amongst users, so you don't need servers at all.
Overall better security (info is duplicated over several members of the network, cheating is made almost impossible)
Closer to the users: you can set up your own network with friends.
It could be possible to dynamically connect different networks together.

Inconvenients:
The total load is superior, since most calculations are made on several machines at the same time.
The bandwidth usage is superior to what a client/server architecture asks a client computer.
Since the information of other (non-playing) people is saved on your machine when you're playing, it requires more RAM / HD space (not much though).

You'll need 1 or 2 experimented programmers, that can code for Coca. But the most difficult part of such a project is not the underlying code, but the actual content (systems, ships, weapons, story, missions and al.).
If you can find good programmers with a minimum of Objective-C + Cocoa programming and good knowledge of network replication of info algorithms, that would make the first third of the project possible. If you intend to make this game 3D, add in another programmer for the 3D engine and the physics engine (i can do the latter), but you'd then also need modelers, skinners and animators. I'd say that would double the amount of work to do.