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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Possibly, but it seems that the Voinians have a pattern of not wanting to engage in friendly relations with anyone. Every race they have encountered is enslaved or at war (UE and Emalgha) save for the Miranu, probably because they're pretty far off from current Voinian space and the empire has its plate full already.
A point of order to back this up: There is not one government or race within or bordering the Voinian Empire that they have chosen to coexist with. Not one.
If they are xenophobic, then it is natural that they do not want neighbors. True isolation is when there is literally nobody close by.
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
I look at the patterns. The Emalgha did not want to be enslaved, because they clearly fought back with vigor. Nor did the Hinwar, or they would not have wanted to revolt. If this is not enough for you, there are smaller races that the Voinians took over that are briefly discussed in Voinian descs. To tell the truth I don't seem to have a Voinian pilot around anymore, but if you want more substance I'll look em' up with EV-Edit. I can remember one other example right now, at least: the Dur and Ala races, which occupy twin moons of the same names. I remember enough of what I've read to recall that the two had disagreements and were at war, until the Voinians came and conquered them both, uniting them in servitude to their masters.
Instead of shedding light on Voinian behavior, this may actually shed light on the races you mentioned. Your logic does not invalidate the possibility I presented. For all we know, they did invite Voinian rule, only later did they change their minds. It is even possible that a treaty was drawn up detailing the terms of the relationship and when they reneged on their part of the bargain, the Voinians retaliated by occupying them.
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Hmmm. Well, I don't really care what form of slavery they use, as I believe all slavery is wrong. Not to get off track, but slavery in the south was certainly economic slavery, although the racist aspects of that tend to get more attention from most people. I think we can agree that regardless of the reason, slavery is a great injustice. So even if Voinian slavery is economically-based, I don't see a justification for it. Returning to Voinian nature, how do the Voinians get more slaves? By conquering weaker races. This is definitely a warlike, hostile culture, and one that is, in at least some cases, forcing entire races into slavery so they (the Voinians) can become more wealthy.
Not so fast. If slavery is indeed economically-based, then for all we know, there may be very strict Voinian laws regarding slavery. For example, there might be laws dictating that a person can only become a slave willingly. (Motives can be numerous. If it is economically-based, it's quite possible that a person would willingly enter slavery to pay off a large debt. Or perhaps criminals must become slaves for their victims' families.) There might be laws dictating treatment of slaves (no "cruel and unusual" variety). There might be laws dictating that the slaves must be set free by a certain time. (If you read the Bible, you probably have a clue as to what I'm referring to.)
There are more possible systems than race-based onces. I already mentioned economically-based ones and I mentioend the possibility of one enforced as a matter of crime and punishment. People may also become slaves to repay a debt of honor.
In short, what if people became slaves through their own free will?
If the system is not race-based, then the sources of slavery are numerous. As yet, you still have not presented any evidence erasing the possibility that Voinians may use their own as slaves, all the more possible if slavery is of the forms mentioned above. The forms mentioned above can ensure a steady supply of slaves (That is, unless Voinians can solve their crime problem and create a Communist paradise.) without conquest. And, if they follow the pattern of Austria-Hungary, conquered races can become masters as well.
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
All slaves have good reason to not be pleased with their circumstances. And I freely acknowledge that the station is a precaution. The example doesn't demonstrate the type of slavery the Voinians use, but two points: One, as I said before it doesn't matter to me which kind it is. Second, the example in fact backs up one of my points: that the Hinwar were not willingly put into servitude, that they were conquered violently, and that the Hinwar as a whole were all too eager to rise up and overthrow their masters: as soon as we take out Gualon Station in the UE scenario, the Voinians lose Gualon/Liadon. In addition, the Krotun slaves also overthrew their masters at the first opportunity.
Your point one has been dealt with above.
As for point 2, I must say again: Not so fast.
I agree that the Hinwar lived under the shadow of miltiary coercion. But you have not yet demonstrated that they did not invite the Voinians in to begin with. Nor have you proven that they did not bring about their fate through faults of their own. As far as we know, the Hinwar may simply be ungrateful ingrates. (Perhaps reminding you of another race we're talking about in JC?)
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Yes. One moment....
"Ghammol is the name of a town on Emalghia, whose inhabitants, at the time of the Voinian occupation, were massacred in reprisal for Emalghan resistance actions."
First of all, I'd like to commend whoever wrote the text. He wrote it with great objectivity.
And I said "objectivity", because I contend that the text tells less than you want to believe.
Remember the My Lai Massacre? An objective historian would've written: "(My Lai) is the name of a town (in Vietnam), whose inhabitants, at the time of the (American) occupation, were massacred in reprisal for (Vietnamese) resistance actions."
Were they massacred by Americans? Yes. Does that mean the entire American government was involved? No.
Similarly, as far as we know, the massacre could've resulted from anything ranging from a confusion after a hard battle to a few angry Voinian field commanders whose ruthless actions should not reflect upon their government or their kindred.
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
Here you go. This desc is particularly telling.
"Irid was the home of a sentient people, now long forgotten, who were enslaved by the Voinians. They proved to be extremely rebellious, however, and eventually the Voinians, having decided to make an example of them, caused the production of the thick blue toxic gas which still fils the atmosphere - wiping out the native people. The Voinians then abandoned the world."
Simply another version of the American government sending blankets carrying rabies to the Native Americans. Just more successful.
Biological warfare had been used since time immemorial. I don't think we're supposed to be surprised.
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Originally posted by UE Crusader:
No, that would've been a most unwise strategy. For one thing, the Voinians most certainly do not merely keep to themselves and leave it at that, as the Polaris in EV Nova do. Again, the Voinians clearly have an aggressive, warlike nature. The Emalgha, for example, would have been quite content being left alone (I can once again back this up with descs if you doubt this), but it was the Voinians who came and occupied their homeworld without cause. If the Voinians had wanted to live in isolation, their borders would be nowhere near as large as they are.
Given the pattern of Voinian behavior demonstrated earlier, its doubtful that the Voinians would have not advanced any further if the UE had drawn back. And where could they have drawn back to? Earth is incredibly close to the border; not far at all from Outpost Alpha and Outpost Gamma, vital lines of defense against the Voinian threat. What could the UE have done? Abandon Earth? Their center of Government, their homeworld? All to accomodate a hostile enemy that attacks without provocation? Hardly. What you propose is far too much to ask, and on top of that its a downright unrealistic strategy. The UE draws back, the Voinians come and conquer more territory, the UE draws back....eventually, there's nowhere to run to.
I do not oppose the right to be xenophobic in the way the Polaris are in Nova. I DO oppose the Voinian method, because it is clear they do not want and never did want to live peacefully isolated from all others: if that were true, they would not be conquering others as they do. I think one can be and is completely justified in being 100% opposed to Voinian aggression, especially considering what they do to the conquered.
I have to disagree with you about the UE response based on what I said in the above response. The Voinians would not have let them alone. What the UE essentially did was defend itself against a hostile foe, and they did what they had to. Their actions did not cause the conflict, but they did enable them to survive it. The only alternatives were to fall back (your proposal) or submit to Voinian rule; both of these choices are totally unacceptable.
Your turn.
UEC
I concede that line of reasoning I proposed (The one about withdrawal).
So let me propose a new one! 
Ever watched Babylon 5? Do you know how first contact between the humans and the Minbari went?
P.S. I must confess, seldom have I felt my talent for explanation so sorely tested. You put up some fairly formidable arguments. Particularly the last 2 sections. I had to take a break to re-organize my thoughts.
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