idea like Endless War?

Poll: Is there still any interest in an idea like Endless War? (13 member(s) have cast votes)
Is there still any interest in an idea like Endless War?
Yes, I'd be interested
(12 votes [92.31%])
Percentage of vote: 92.31%
No, I'd not be interested
(1 votes [7.69%])
Percentage of vote: 7.69%

I am wondering if there is still any interest in doing a webstory like Endless War (here). I believe General Rak was planning to start one a month or two ago, but he doesn't seem to have been able to get around to it (the rules he proposed using can be found here). (I would prefer someone else would moderate if one is started.) Please post and give an idea of which rules you approve and (if there are any) what changes should be made to any of the existing rule sets (Endless War's and General Rak's). If you think totally a new rule set should be invented, please give an idea of what rules you'd like it to include.

Selax, on Jan 2 2005, 06:29 AM, said:

I am wondering if there is still any interest in doing a webstory like Endless War (here). I believe General Rak was planning to start one a month or two ago, but he doesn't seem to have been able to get around to it (the rules he proposed using can be found here). (I would prefer someone else would moderate if one is started.) Please post and give an idea of which rules you approve and (if there are any) what changes should be made to any of the existing rule sets (Endless War's and General Rak's). If you think totally a new rule set should be invented, please give an idea of what rules you'd like it to include.
View Post

After authoring various webstories over a period of many years, I think I could safely say that the chances of a webstory abiding by set rules is practically nil. Even webstories with a good moderating team and a well-planned list of rules don't get anywhere without half of the topics being wasted with useless arguing ("that's not fair or realistic" being a common post). The main problem is finding an ideal way to calculate the results of webstory battles AND keeping a tight lid on technology research... (for instance, I got really tired of people inventing death stars and guns that could blow up entire fleets).

A solution to battles that has crossed my mind would be to program some type of script where you could list the ships involved, their stats, their numbers, and have the script randomly predict the results based on the info (it'd operate much like the battle engine used for the Hyperiums webgame... something along those lines). Of course, you'd obviously require some programming knowledge or someone who could write it for you, but it'd seriously improve the environment of a webstory.

In most of the webstories I've run, I've had technology research banned completely; it's complicated, unpredictable and generally changes the course of the entire story over time. Other ideas include limiting research to only one new project for every _ number of webstory pages, and then having a story mod verify the research project as sane or completely absurd. But I normally don't allow it... everyone wants their side to win, and research will usually control the story sooner or later over who can develop the biggest and baddest weapon / ship.

If you're gonna plan a webstory, you'd better put a heck of a lot of time into planning it. The most successful story I ever ran (which Rak will remember) was the first episode of the "Battle for Sol" series... and the reason it worked out so well was because it was entirely based on the original Escape Velocity ships and weapons, as well as systems. Everyone knew the game features and their capabilities. Of course we all still had our disagreements from time to time, but at least we all knew what the vast percentage of the webstory toys and gadgets were capable of. The more planning you put into your webstory, the better it will run. Or at least, get your participants very familiar with your story features and universe.

Anyway, just my two cents. I'm rather tired of seeing so many webstories over the years have excellent potential, then die in a matter of days or weeks.

-Cap'n

General Rak had planned to ban weapons research but allow non-weapons research. I would be okay with banning it completely as it sounds like it'd avoid problems; however, I would still prefer that new ship designs can be researched. A program calculator is being designed (not by me) for a similar idea on the Cythera web board and would probably be a good idea for an EV webstory. Another idea that occurred to me is organizing a team to decide battle outcome and casualities. They could then inform the particpants using the personal messaging system and the particpants could then post accordingly. I had hoped to do something like Endless War and use the existing galaxy as a base (allowing new ship designs to be researched and built). I still hope that General Rak will be able to start his, but I am unable to get in touch with him and am not sure if he will be able to. Assuming there is enough interest to start one with similar rules, I would prefer not to moderate unless there is no alternative.

Selax, on Jan 2 2005, 10:45 PM, said:

General Rak had planned to ban weapons research but allow non-weapons research. I would be okay with banning it completely as it sounds like it'd avoid problems; however, I would still prefer that new ship designs can be researched. A program calculator is being designed (not by me) for a similar idea on the Cythera web board and would probably be a good idea for an EV webstory. Another idea that occurred to me is organizing a team to decide battle outcome and casualities. They could then inform the particpants using the personal messaging system and the particpants could then post accordingly. I had hoped to do something like Endless War and use the existing galaxy as a base (allowing new ship designs to be researched and built). I still hope that General Rak will be able to start his, but I am unable to get in touch with him and am not sure if he will be able to. Assuming there is enough interest to start one with similar rules, I would prefer not to moderate unless there is no alternative.
View Post

The idea of having moderators / selected team to predict battle results has already been tried in (I believe) Battle for Sol Episode III. It too didn't work well since the majority of the mod team were actual participants in the webstory; players felt that the mods were leaning the battles too heavily in favor of the sides they fought for. If anything, select a mod team that has no affiliation with any side of the webstory... in other words, they don't even play. They just read and list battle results. Similar concept to a referee team in the NFL.

I suppose my policy on webstories is best summed up by this: keep it simple. You'd be surprised how many people join webstories without reading the pages and pages of instructions and such. In some cases it may be necessary, but make sure the players are informed on everything.

That's cool that a calculator system is being developed for the Cythera forum. If it works well, that sure... the idea could certainly be put to use for EV webstories. Heck, you could even use ResEdit as a simple calculator to create ship / weapon stats and then play the battles out in EV (on probably a smaller scale). I believe Cap'n Carnotaur tried that once upon a time for one of his Override webstories.

Aye, I haven't heard from Rak in awhile either. The last thing I heard was a PM requesting my mod presence in his webstory, which I lacked the time for. Haven't seen him since.

-Cap'n

Captain Skyblade is completely right. The reason the Endless War died was due to complications in technology and too much complexity in general. The same is true for almost every webstory I've joined and I've never had a chance to be in a successful one so I know quite a bit about the failures. Technological development should be at least incredibly limited and preferably be completely eliminated. Additionally if a moderator can be found that doesn't want to participate there will be less allegations of favoritism; failing that there should be as many mods as practically possible.

If another webstory does start the most important thing for every player to remember is to role-play. The only thing most players did in the Endless War (myself included) was research and post the number of ships they'd built. I can't think of one plot that was even vaguely interesting. I'd say that using Rak's rules would not create a web-story but rather more of a multi-player puzzle. Dealing with the tangle of rules would not leave much time for actually writing interesting plot twists.

I'm not sure if I'm actually interested in joining at this time, it depends on how the concept develops.

Good luck!

Paranoid, on Jan 3 2005, 01:25 AM, said:

Captain Skyblade is completely right. The reason the Endless War died was due to complications in technology and too much complexity in general. The same is true for almost every webstory I've joined and I've never had a chance to be in a successful one so I know quite a bit about the failures. Technological development should be at least incredibly limited and preferably be completely eliminated. Good luck!
View Post

For sure.

One thing that urked me about Endless War was that it specified that posts should be made short and to the point. That wasn't right. The point of these things, I think, is the writing. That's what keeps people interested. Battle for Sol III was really fun while it was going good because it was very well structured in the plot and tech.

I personally agree that new tech should be elminated entirely, and also that Mods should be neutral. And this time, let's all pitch in ideas for a webstory so we get something everyone wants to do.

I think new techology research will be eliminated, but new ships may still be designed (one at a time maybe taking a week or two for each group). It will probably be a modified and shortened rule system similar to General Rak's (here).
A list of some possible ideas:
Corporations would not be playable.
Number of Adjuncts will be increased to two for both sides. (If Pirates end up nonplayable this number will probably increase to three.)
(Does anyone have any suggestions concerning what should be done with pirates? Should one member control all of them? Should they and Independant governments even be playable? Should advantages be given to them or should they stay the same and whoever controls be a member who likes a challenge?)
The income system would be kept.
Fleet construction looks good, although if anyone has any ideas I'd appreciate it if they would offer them.
(Does anyone have an idea concerning defense fleets {in general} and the fate of captured planets {time it takes to build a defense fleet and should captured planets be integrated instantly into the conquering government}.) Perhaps after three days a defense fleet could be built at a captured planet and then the planet would integrated into the conquering government.
(Ideas for Combat would be appreciated).
Movement would remain as it is in the rules.
Logistics (any ideas on how fleet repair can be conducted or should it just be automatic to avoid to many confusing rules) and Alert Status would not be present.
Vessels and Technology has been addressed at the top (should ship prices be decided using the ship pricing calculator or through some other means?).
Intellectual Property, Intelligence, and Moderation look fine (although it would be best if the moderator was not a participant in the story). Should a scanning range such as Endless War had be used?
Feedback and any new ideas would be appreciated.

Jimbob, on Jan 3 2005, 10:26 PM, said:

For sure.

One thing that urked me about Endless War was that it specified that posts should be made short and to the point. That wasn't right. The point of these things, I think, is the writing. That's what keeps people interested. Battle for Sol III was really fun while it was going good because it was very well structured in the plot and tech.

I personally agree that new tech should be elminated entirely, and also that Mods should be neutral. And this time, let's all pitch in ideas for a webstory so we get something everyone wants to do.
View Post

Precisely. The entire point of a webstory is to be creative. I still hold all three episodes of Battle for Sol to be the finest webstories yet, simply because our participants invested some effort and time into their characters. Plus they were objective about where the end results of the story would lead, which always kept it interesting.

I for one have no problem with long posts in a webstory as long as they're interesting and relevant. It's the rule list that should remain simple and terse.

-Cap'n

This Endless war thing would be ok I guess. I voted yes because EV is a good game. An Endless War would be pretty boring though. What you should do is make just another storyline. Do the Alien storyline. That would be pretty cool I think. You could like get the Alien Crusier and like lead all the Alien race to doination of the universe. Only an idea though.

duke_juker, on Jan 5 2005, 04:54 AM, said:

This Endless war thing would be ok I guess. I voted yes because EV is a good game. An Endless War would be pretty boring though. What you should do is make just another storyline. Do the Alien storyline. That would be pretty cool I think. You could like get the Alien Crusier and like lead all the Alien race to doination of the universe. Only an idea though.
View Post

Battle for Sol Episode II dealt with the return of EV's aliens to the galaxy... the universe had been united after the fall of the Confederation in Episode I, followed by its invasion in Episode II. Nothing wrong with a new webstory about the aliens, but I for one would like to explore something new. For instance, I've been thinking about a story which takes place during the colonization of the galaxy (before there's even a Confederation and Rebellion). I also have many other ideas... it's just a matter of finding the time to get them organized.

-Cap'n

I think it might be best to do the webstory with the only playable sides being Confederation or Rebellion (no pirates or Independents). Instead of an alien invasion webstory, it might be interesting to do a webstory set in the universe of an EV plug-in. (I'd appreciate feedback on the list of general rules and any ideas about unsolved problems.)

Captain Skyblade, on Jan 5 2005, 12:21 PM, said:

Battle for Sol Episode II dealt with the return of EV's aliens to the galaxy... the universe had been united after the fall of the Confederation in Episode I, followed by its invasion in Episode II. Nothing wrong with a new webstory about the aliens, but I for one would like to explore something new. For instance, I've been thinking about a story which takes place during the colonization of the galaxy (before there's even a Confederation and Rebellion). I also have many other ideas... it's just a matter of finding the time to get them organized.

-Cap'n
View Post

I like your idea. That could really work if we made the plug-in. Anyway, I didn't see that part of the Episodes. I'm not a Geru at EV you know. Oh well. I will be one day. :laugh:

Swithich, on Jan 5 2005, 08:04 PM, said:

I like your idea. That could really work if we made the plug-in. Anyway, I didn't see that part of the Episodes. I'm not a Geru at EV you know. Oh well. I will be one day. :laugh:
View Post

This was my friends user name. I posted this, but he didn't log out so I could log on. Sry.

duke_juker, on Jan 6 2005, 01:09 AM, said:

This was my friends user name. I posted this, but he didn't log out so I could log on. Sry.
View Post

Heh, no harm done.

I've also thought about a story which combines EVC and the EVE Online story ideas into an interesting combination. The Confederation / Rebellion discover a rift in space which leads to an unknown galaxy, or even a totally new universe. Colonies are formed on the other side of the rift / gate, and the main struggle of the Confed / Rebellion war becomes a fight for control over the rift, and who ultimately controls the universe at the other side. Unforseen by scientists however, the rift suddenly collapses years later during a battle between Confederation and Rebellion forces, cutting off all contact with the colonists on the other side. Where the webstory begins is with the colonies in this unknown galaxy, struggling for survival without support from their parent bases in the Milky Way. The Rebellion and Confederation both have about equal amounts of colonies here, and they will be forced to either forget their differences and unite in order to live, or fight one another for resources and ultimate domination of the new galaxy.

Of course, the above could merely be backstory... I could take an EVE Online twist and fast-forward the story to 10,000 years or so in the future. Mankind has survived the initial fight for survival, and technology has advanced beyond humanity's wildest dreams. Mankind has slowly split into several seperate races through the centuries, as the Confederation and Rebellion wars are now as old as the stone age. All of these races have different technologies, regions to live, industry, politics, even appearance etc., many of which are allied with one another and fight against the other human races. However, one day the rift that was thought to once be destroyed forever, reforms. And mankind discovers that who and what used to live in the Milky Way once upon a time has been destroyed for centures, maybe even milleniums. No sooner does the rift form when humanity's now-home galaxy faces a massive force of unknown species pouring through to invade.

I could add many things about who the invaders may be, but I've thought about keeping that as part of the webstory... perhaps they are the same aliens that once invaded the Milky Way during the early days of the Confederation. Maybe the humans themselves brought on their own destruction by creating some form of technology or species via mutation that eventually revolted against them. Maybe they ARE the humans that once inhabited the Milky Way... only something is very different - and wrong - with them. I don't know... I could think of a million ideas.

I think about such stories constantly - always got ideas to share. Might make a webstory / plug out of it someday.

-Cap'n

Captain Skyblade, on Jan 5 2005, 11:21 PM, said:

Heh, no harm done.

I've also thought about a story which combines EVC and the EVE Online story ideas into an interesting combination. The Confederation / Rebellion discover a rift in space which leads to an unknown galaxy, or even a totally new universe. Colonies are formed on the other side of the rift / gate, and the main struggle of the Confed / Rebellion war becomes a fight for control over the rift, and who ultimately controls the universe at the other side. Unforseen by scientists however, the rift suddenly collapses years later during a battle between Confederation and Rebellion forces, cutting off all contact with the colonists on the other side. Where the webstory begins is with the colonies in this unknown galaxy, struggling for survival without support from their parent bases in the Milky Way. The Rebellion and Confederation both have about equal amounts of colonies here, and they will be forced to either forget their differences and unite in order to live, or fight one another for resources and ultimate domination of the new galaxy.

Of course, the above could merely be backstory... I could take an EVE Online twist and fast-forward the story to 10,000 years or so in the future. Mankind has survived the initial fight for survival, and technology has advanced beyond humanity's wildest dreams. Mankind has slowly split into several seperate races through the centuries, as the Confederation and Rebellion wars are now as old as the stone age. All of these races have different technologies, regions to live, industry, politics, even appearance etc., many of which are allied with one another and fight against the other human races. However, one day the rift that was thought to once be destroyed forever, reforms. And mankind discovers that who and what used to live in the Milky Way once upon a time has been destroyed for centures, maybe even milleniums. No sooner does the rift form when humanity's now-home galaxy faces a massive force of unknown species pouring through to invade.

I could add many things about who the invaders may be, but I've thought about keeping that as part of the webstory... perhaps they are the same aliens that once invaded the Milky Way during the early days of the Confederation. Maybe the humans themselves brought on their own destruction by creating some form of technology or species via mutation that eventually revolted against them. Maybe they ARE the humans that once inhabited the Milky Way... only something is very different - and wrong - with them. I don't know... I could think of a million ideas.

I think about such stories constantly - always got ideas to share. Might make a webstory / plug out of it someday.

-Cap'n
View Post

I love it! That is the best. That could be the Endless War. But a couple things. Maybe they should figure out how to from or reopen the rift gate instead of it just reappearing. Or, these Aliens could open it. Another thing, sort of sounds like Halo. Would could put Halo into the storyline. See, the humans on the other side of the rift, or wormhole, (the ones in the Milky Way) could have been killed like in Halo. Those little creatures that turn 'em inside out, that would be cool. See, this thing is endless. Now, let's say we put in the Flood, the First Aliens encountered in the Great War, and the Zerglings from Starcraft. There we go.

These Aliens fight each other and once the rift opened, they expanded into it. They fought inside on the other side of the rift. Then, the advanced human races would see them and ban together to fight against them. The Flood built more rings and increased there numbers. Ohh, and don't forget the Covenant. They are part of the Alien battles too. The original Confedertion and Rebelion had banded together once they saw the Aliens. They were pushed back slowly until they could go no further. But, then the rift opens and they escape as all the Aliens converge.

A fierious battle enrages afterwards. Finally, as the Aliens finish up this battle. they see the rift. They decide to cahse the humans only to find a whole other civilization ont the other side. The Fed-Rebel Alliance battle bruised ships dock at the closest planet, which turns out to be a scientific staion for rift and weapon research for one of the human races. They meet with the station comander and talk about the entire story of the rift and Aliens.

The Alliance decides to bring together all the human races to fight back the Aliens and close the rift so there would be peace restored. pause to take a breath and go pee As the story unfolds, you become a military pilot for the CRA (Confederation-Rebelion Alliance). You fight at various battles, get rank advancements, and better ships. But, in one major fight, your ship is blown-up and you are captured luckily (but unluckily) by the Covenant.

By then, your rank is 2nd class Admiral with combat rating of deadly or higher. You decide to use your whits to get into the strategic battle files of the Covenant, relay the plans to New Earth (artificially created of course) and get back to the CRA high comand. Ahh, I'm too tired to think of any more. Anyways, those are some of my ideas. Tell me what you think.

I think I'll update the rules list (it is still subject to change, but since the idea of the webstory seems to be changing some things are no longer necessary).
Corporations, pirates, and Independents would not be playable. I think it will be a conflict between two main governments.
Number of Adjuncts will be increased to at least two for both sides. (There will be more if there are enough people.)
The income system would be kept (a higher amount will probably be given to each government and then be divided among the members playing under each government).
Fleet construction looks good, although if anyone has any ideas I'd appreciate it if they would offer them. Stations will take a minimum of two weeks.
Defense fleets will be constructed three days after a planet's conquest. A maximum of thirty ships will be allowed. An appropriate amount of money for a player to spend on a fleet will need to be determined.
For combat, I think we will use a battle calculator (assuming someone is willing to write one or has a mean to do it) or a neutral moderator will decide battle outcome.
Movement would remain as it is in the rules.
Logistics and Alert Status would not be present. Fleet damage (not ship numbers) will be automatically repaired at the end of a day (possibly at the end of a battle).
Technology research is banned. New ship designs may be researched.
Intelligence and Moderation look fine (although it would be best if the moderator was not a participant in the story). Should a scanning range such as Endless War had be used?
Feedback and any new ideas would be appreciated.

Now, back to the idea of the webstory.
I, too, like the idea proposed by Captain Skyblade (being set 10,000 years in the future). The invading force (changed to avoid any risk of copyright infringement) proposed by duke_juker would be interesting, but I'd like to hear other proposals before making any decision. I think there should be two main governments葉he invading force of aliens and/or mutated humans and the force of humans (with possibly allied aliens). Two main ship set should be used to avoid confusion and a lot work. (Who would design new ships, weapons, and a new galaxy? Should these be taken from a plug-in? I can think of a good candiate if we ask for permission to use these objects.)

Selax, you're right. The idea should be two governments. The first would be the Most powerful Matured human race and an alien race. Weapons and ships should stay the same except we should add a couple for each Gov't. Maybe a couple new weapons. Uhh.....I don't know. Add some more ideas.

No offense to Skyblade's wonderful idea but I think it might be best to build up the human society and their status before any alien invasion jumps in. That in itself might take a few weeks, but it feels to me like it would be necessary in order to understand the changes in society and environment in 10,000 years as well as the political situation in order to understand the reaction to the alien attack. If the story was played well in this first stage it would be easy to find players for the alien attack force and the political situation would be more interesting in this case, unless there isn't enough interest in which case the human society could be the main thing that the story concentrates on.

The present plan also dictates a new map, is anyone able to get access to a map or would like to build one?

While I have an idea for a storyline and it as follows:
The Aliens were not completely destroyed in the Great War. Although they were nearly annihilated, the remains of their fleets retreated and vowed that they would get revenge on the humans no matter how long it took. However, they had learned from the war that humans were very innovative. The Aliens also knew that their population would not grow as quickly as the population of the humans. So they hit upon the idea of a biologic plague, even though it might take thousands of years to act or even become virulent. To this end, they dispatched one cruiser and three fighters with orders to seed the plague on as many worlds as possible. For one year, this small force carried out its mission before it was hunted down and destroyed. Shortly after, the humans found a rift in hyperspace which led to a new galaxy. Both the Confederation and Rebellion sent expeditionary forces into the region, which scouted worlds suitable for settlement. Abruptly, the rift closed stranding the forces. Realizing they were trapped, they settled on a few worlds and somehow survived (since these worlds weren't seeded witht the plague, they didn't get infected with it).
Nearly 6,000 years later, the plague became virulent and quickly spread throughout Confederate and Rebel (these two governments had managed to survive somehow) space. After 1,000 years, these two governments made peace in a attempt to combat the plague. For the next 2,000 years, they tried to cure those infected. Then, the full horror of the plague was revealed. After a sufficient amount of time, the plague went into a new phase. Instead of simply killing humans, it mutated them into hideous creatures. A desparate war ensued and, as the humans seemed close to victory, the Aliens returned and sided with the creatures (even uniting with them under one leader). For the next 1,000 years the humans were pushed back, until they were forced into the region where the rift had originally existed. By that time, the rift had become a myth, but, desparate to escape, they used advanced technology in an attempt to reopen it. They succeeded and fled様eaving automated defenses to hold the aliens as long as possible. On the other side they encountered the descendants of the original Confederate and Rebel fleets, who had split into various government. After they begged these governments for help, the governments agreed to send scouts to investigate. These scouts were horrified by what they discovered on the other side of the rift葉he automated defenses were being overrun and the Alien-Mutant forces would be ready to enter the rift soon. Persuaded by the images brought back by the scouts, the humans united under one leader and sent their fleets to wait for the Aliens. Overconfident, the Alien-Mutant attack force stormed into an ambush and was slaughtered. The humans had won a victory, but the war was far from over. The Aliens managed to open two more hyperlinks into adjacent systems. When their initial attempts to take these systems failed, both alliances constructed stations in all three systems to serve as denfenses and created a uniform ships and weapons. That is the state of the war so far (other aliens could be added if it is desired).
Feedback and suggestions on this and the general rules would be appreciated.

Ok, it does sound a little like Halo, but that's ok. The one leader thing for the Aliens, I don't know if we should do that. For the humans I doubt that will make sense, since all the humans are seperate. I say we designate the certain specifications and then revise, final the story, and then make the game or plug whatever it is.