Quote

Originally posted by htjyang:
**I suggest that you go back and look at the Revolutionary War again. Then you'll notice that those "starved militias" had a country called France on their side. You see, France was fairly powerful at that time. Not as powerful as the British Empire but fairly close. 90% of the ammunition used by the colonials were supplied by the French. In addition, those "starved militias" also had Spain and Holland on their side, drawing away Britain's attention. I don't think there is any power in EV that comes close to the Confeds. I'm afraid that the rebels are doomed.

Of course if you can find other counterexamples, I'd be more than happy to review them with you.
**

France didn't side with the U.S. until the "starved militias" had proven that they would win anyway.

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I beat ya!!!

The Rebels. So they don't have the resources and the money, so what? The Confed senate are a bunch of slouches. I say the Rebels cuz they have a drive to elimenate the losy confed scum and take back Earth

Long live Ambrosia!

Realistically the confeds would win 'cos they would just nuke Palshife to dust but they can't do that in the game because there would be no story line.

Not very many Empires are overthrown by force its usually inside troble e.g the Roman Empire or the empire gives up its territory e.g the British Empire so the confeds would win just by blowing Palshife up.

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Quote

Originally posted by ev123:
**France didn't side with the U.S. until the "starved militias" had proven that they would win anyway.

**

The Battle of Saratoga proved that the colonials could make trouble for the British. It did not prove that they could win. There is a difference between the two.

The Battle of Yorktown would not have resulted in a colonial victory if not for the fact that Cornwallis's supply ships were blockaded by the French fleet and did not reach him.

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"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"

"He has a point.

The Rebellion's Casue attracts more privateers. You don't see Rebel Ships defecting, but you see Confed Ships defecting all the time.

Eventually the Rebels will have MUCH better leaders."

---well, the rebels probably already have much better leaders, considering that has to be what kept them alive up to date. and the reason all the feds are defecting, well, two reasons, 1) the confederacy has a much larger army, thus the proportion of defecters would rise (as expected), and 2) the rebellion fights for a better cause.

now, while these two reasons are sound, doesn't matter. the confederacy (scum to the bone) will come out victorious, unless of course one of two things happens, 1) teh rebellion unites with the pirates, or 2) they destroy, litterally, each and every confed military outpost, how easy is that?

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Jeremy Woodruff as,
THE WHITE SHADOW

Quote

Originally posted by Burning cow:
**Realistically the confeds would win 'cos they would just nuke Palshife to dust but they can't do that in the game because there would be no story line.

Not very many Empires are overthrown by force its usually inside troble e.g the Roman Empire or the empire gives up its territory e.g the British Empire so the confeds would win just by blowing Palshife up.

**

Uhh, the Roman Empire was destroyed by nomadic barbarian attacks, IIRC, and the British empire lost its territory through rebellion, ie India and America. They can't nuke Palshife in the game because they can't penetrate that deeply into rebel space, and they aren't even aware the secret rebel headquarters are there.

**

Quote

now, while these two reasons are sound, doesn't matter. the confederacy (scum to the bone) will come out victorious, unless of course one of two things happens, 1) teh rebellion unites with the pirates, or 2) they destroy, litterally, each and every confed military outpost, how easy is that?

**

"and they aren't even aware the secret rebel headquarters are there."

secret my ass, if any simple pilot can fly and land on that planet, and have a description available saying that it's the secret headquarters then it's not so secret now is it... also...when on the planet, you are faced with several missions that you have to fend off confed attacks... who's to say that they can't send in a unit of confed cruisers armed with nuclear weaponry? anyone in their right mind can deny that possibility.

i do have a hard time believing that rebels could get into fed space (easily, and without being detected) and blow up earth...also, what good would that do considering they all originated there. in other words...the feds can nuke the rebels, but not viceversa. the feds have all the resources. the feds have all the tech. the feds have total control. the feds have strategic positioning in the center of the galaxy. now who has the advantage? if you deny any more that the confederates, although bastards, would win, then it's an obvious attempt to further this conversation, not an attempt to prove yourself right, because that'd be impossible.

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Jeremy Woodruff as,
THE WHITE SHADOW

Quote

Originally posted by Jeremy Woodruff:
**"and they aren't even aware the secret rebel headquarters are there."

secret my ass, if any simple pilot can fly and land on that planet, and have a description available saying that it's the secret headquarters then it's not so secret now is it... also...when on the planet, you are faced with several missions that you have to fend off confed attacks... who's to say that they can't send in a unit of confed cruisers armed with nuclear weaponry? anyone in their right mind can deny that possibility.

**

I don't think Confeds can look at the description The confeds may know that it's a rebel planet (thus requiring the confeds be fended off) but not know that it's the HQ. Anyone in their right mind would understand that the rebs would also have the knowledge to build nukes. The whole point, though, is that neither side seems to be using them, meaning that they either consider it a poor strategy (no point in taking back planets if they don't have the resources the war is being waged for) or it's impossible (a functional Star Wars defense system is a definite possibility that far in the future.

Quote

**

i do have a hard time believing that rebels could get into fed space (easily, and without being detected) and blow up earth...also, what good would that do considering they all originated there. in other words...the feds can nuke the rebels, but not viceversa. the feds have all the resources. the feds have all the tech. the feds have total control. the feds have strategic positioning in the center of the galaxy. now who has the advantage? if you deny any more that the confederates, although bastards, would win, then it's an obvious attempt to further this conversation, not an attempt to prove yourself right, because that'd be impossible.

**

Please. Ever hear of the cloaking device? And I've seen the rebs beat all confed ships in the Sol system before, in standard EV What difference would it make that they originate there? We all originated in Africa, but there's still plenty of warfare going on in there. The feds don't have all the resources, that's why they took the outer planets. They obviously don't have all the tech, their scientists keep defecting, the rebels are originally confeds and would know most of the tech the confeds started with, and the confed ships are so inferior, especially price-wise, a sign of the confed's inferior technology. The feds obviously don't have total control. The only thing they do have, as you say, is strategic positioning, which won't help them with the rebels so easily piercing their defenses and the confeds unable to win back the planets. I'm making these points to expose the flawed reasoning behind your arguments. It would be impossible to prove myself right, but it's impossible for you to prove that you're right, and yet you still made that post.

The Aliens could win, if only they weren't extinct.

I'm a Rebel Supporter, but I'm sad to say I believe the Confeds would win. They managed to wipe out the entire alien race, the Rebels can't even take a few seconds under a fusion beam.

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Those who make up the rules, do not play the game. We, however, do.
-Imperial Captain Alexi Darvonsal
StarLance

Thought I'd throw this into the proper ring:

A few things to mention on the "Rebels Vs. Confeds" thread:

Firstly, I wanted to mention a plug, "Inherent Governemnt" , I released a couple of years ago. It allowed you to fly a rebel ship in confed space without being attacked, and vice versa. This is all it did, and conflicts with other plugs where basically nill. For some reason, when the web people made the switch to the new format, they deleted all the text that accompanied the plug. I don't know too much about this Wyvern guy, or his plug, but considering the debate, I thought a mention of IG was appropriate.

As for the speculation on the outcome of the war, from what I have read it seems as though no one had made any kind of real life parralel. The Confederation Empire bears a casual resemblance to the American one. The American War Machine has been destroying rebels and rebel causes for over 50 years, without any serious opposition. It takes more than a good cause and some small arms to destroy an army of this size, and the same goes for the EV empire. The problem, as in real life, lies with the citizens of the empire. As long as the confed citizens are kept happy (or distracted with meaningless video games ), very little will change. The funding for the confed warships comes directly from the people, just as in real life. Unless there is some major changes in the way confederation citizens view the war, the rebels don't have a hope in hell.

Warren

well, "anonymous", i just wanted to point out that you didn't use a real name.... maybe that's because you know you can't win this debate, and you want to keep your name in good standards, if it even is... just pointing that possibility out.

"Please. Ever hear of the cloaking device? And I've seen the rebs beat all confed ships in the Sol system before, in standard EV What difference would it make that they originate there? We all originated in Africa, but there's still plenty of warfare going on in there. The feds don't have all the resources, that's why they took the outer planets. They obviously don't have all the tech, their scientists keep defecting, the rebels are originally confeds and would know most of the tech the confeds started with, and the confed ships are so inferior, especially price-wise, a sign of the confed's inferior technology. The feds obviously don't have total control. The only thing they do have, as you say, is strategic positioning, which won't help them with the rebels so easily piercing their defenses and the confeds unable to win back the planets. I'm making these points to expose the flawed reasoning behind your arguments. It would be impossible to prove myself right, but it's impossible for you to prove that you're right, and yet you still made that post."

---yeah, and did you hear how crappy the cloaking device is? it drains all your fuel for crying out loud... inother words, the rebel attackers would be commiting their life for their cause...what kind of government is that!?
and no, their scientists don't keep defecting, hell, i don't remember ONE mission a scientist defected...just ignorant pilots. even if a scientist did defect, he'd be limited to the small amount of resources to further technology over with teh rebs
uh, africa you say...that's just a theory. sure, it could be true, and let's say it is.... not everyone grew up knowing that africa was where they originated, and, also, africa is not the home for a large group of rebellions against the system. so, you using africa as an analogy is horribly flawed.
finally, i bet that the rebels could get a few nukes in, but, i still argue that the pilots/rebellion leaders would struggle coping with the moral dilemna in nuking their own kind... in war, we do not kill civilians (at least try not to).

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Jeremy Woodruff as,
THE WHITE SHADOW

Quote

Originally posted by Jeremy Woodruff:
well, "anonymous", i just wanted to point out that you didn't use a real name.... maybe that's because you know you can't win this debate, and you want to keep your name in good standards, if it even is... just pointing that possibility out.

Quote

Originally posted by da hAkCer:
**If the war did end, who would win? And why?

**

The Rebels would win. 100% guaranteed. They just have better ships. One-on-one, a Manta would beat a Patrol Ship almost every time, or it could sacrifice itself to take down a Gunboat (They disable each other). A Destroyer can destroy a Frigate, or in a pack of 2 or 3, a Cruiser. Rebel Cruisers are, without a doubt, the best ships in the game. They can take out any ship one-on-one (Except alien fighters. Nothing can kill those).

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May the world never rest in peace.

The Confeds can't win. Here are some further arguments to justify that:

(list=1)
() The Rebels have resource rich worlds. The whole point of taking those worlds and oppressing the colonists was to fill the pockets of the Confed higher-ups.
() The blockade of Ruby, the primary Confed research station. It would be absolutely impossible to get a prototype device through all those Rebel systems. It would be captured by the Rebels.
() Mankind has only the rights he can defend (One of those rights being freedom from oppression). And if man is deprived of those rights, he will fight for them against all odds until he has achieved them or perishes in the attempt. So what if the Confeds take back all the Rebel worlds? It would only strengthen the resolve of the revolutionaries! They would continue to fight until every last one is dead. It might even be a benefit, as they could destroy Confed ships while they are on the ground!
() Why aren't the core worlds revolting? Because they aren't being oppressed. Why? Because controlling the slaves would cost more than those slaves would produce! The worlds are not worth exploiting. This implies that the Confeds are trying to take Rebel worlds to get more raw materials, raw materials that they don't have with the worlds currently under their control (See argument 1).
() Dissent among captains is high. This is because they alone have seen what the Confeds will do should they win. So they join the Rebels to preserve their own freedoms (See argument 3).
() Dissent among scientists is high as well. Why? Because the Confeds need new tech to fight the Rebels. To this end, they have scientists as slaves. But they don't just leave because, unlike pilots who have their ships, the scientists have no means to rebel. But if the Rebels liberate them, they will join the cause to prevent the Confeds from enslaving them again (See argument 3 again).
(*) They have better tech (For an explanation, read arguments 2 and 6). They have the cloaking device (Good for hit-and-fade attacks), and the tractor beam (Good for holding ships still while you kill 'em). What do the Confeds have? A particle beam. It sucks major @$$! Doesn't hurt anything!
(/list=a)

That is my tirade on why the Rebels will win.

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May the world never rest in peace.

(This message has been edited by goomeister (edited 11-12-2000).)

Quote

Originally posted by goomeister:
The Confeds can't win. Here are some further arguments to justify that:

To defend my points, I'll clarify a little.

First, people often don't defend their rights because they don't think they can. But it only takes a small spark to start a fire. All they need is one little thing to push them over the edge (The Intolerable Acts and Thomas Paine's Common Sense provided the little push to send the colonies into revolt). All they need is something to start the fire, and the people will fuel it. The Confeds have created the spark, and if they take back Rebel worlds, it will only be pouring gasoline on the flames.

You don't see why having traitors on the other guy's team is a good thing!? It should be obvious: the Confeds are losing their veteran pilots, and will have to get new recruits to replace them, recruits that lack valuable combat experience, making them easy targets for Rebel pilots (Just like what happened to the Germans in WWII. Mustang pilots shot down many German aces, forcing them to use untrained recruits in their place). Also, the defectors may bring Confed battle plans with them, giving the Rebs a tactical advantage. On top of that, traitors give the Confeds some bad publicity that the Rebels can use in their propaganda to get Confed and Independent worlds on their side.

The scientists don't need to be enslaved per se, they too just need the little push to send them over the edge. Like I said, though, they can't exactly break out and escape to Rebel worlds (Except maybe on Ruby, where there are tons of scientists that can band together). But if the Rebels free them, they would gladly go with and help the cause.

I hope that cleared things up!

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May the world never rest in peace.

(quote)Originally posted by goomeister:
**To defend my points, I'll clarify a little.

First, people often don't defend their rights because they don't think they can. But it only takes a small spark to start a fire. All they need is one little thing to push them over the edge (The Intolerable Acts and Thomas Paine's Common Sense
**(/quote)

No, they didn't. They were a few of the many reasons the colonists revolted. And people have endured worse oppression without rebelling, the only reason America rebelled was because we thought we could win and because Britain was hurting the rich, who controlled public opinion.

**(quote)
provided the little push to send the colonies into revolt). All they need is something to start the fire, and the people will fuel it. The Confeds have created the spark, and if they take back Rebel worlds, it will only be pouring gasoline on the flames.
**(/quote)

That is possible, but I think the rebellion will die out over time. I just don't think the Confeds ever could take back rebels, though, so it's not a big concern.

**(quote)

You don't see why having traitors on the other guy's team is a good thing!? It should be

**(/quote)

I don't remember ever saying "having traitors on the other guy's team is(n't) a good thing

**(quote)

obvious: the Confeds are losing their veteran pilots, and will have to get new recruits to replace them, recruits that lack valuable combat experience, making them easy targets for Rebel pilots (Just like what happened to the Germans in WWII. Mustang pilots shot down many German aces, forcing them to use untrained recruits in their place). Also, the defectors may bring Confed battle plans with them, giving the Rebs a tactical advantage.
On top of that, traitors give the Confeds some bad publicity that the Rebels can use in their propaganda to get Confed and Independent worlds on their side.

The scientists don't need to be enslaved per se, they too just need the little push to send them over the edge. Like I said, though, they can't exactly break out and escape to Rebel worlds (Except maybe on Ruby, where there are tons of scientists that can band together). But if the Rebels free them, they would gladly go with and help the cause.
(B)(QUOTE)

The scientists are probably part of the power structure, and would lose by rebelling. Even if not, I imagine the situation in the core Confed worlds is stable; I can't think of any instance of a country rebelling out of sympathy for another rebellion (the 60s were kinda like that, but stopped short of being a real rebellion). The Confeds aren't doing anything (exeptional) to hurt the core worlds, so they have no cause for rebelling. The Confeds would also prevent the rebs propaganda from entering the core worlds for the most part, so I think by the war's end the lines will be the same as they are now.

(B)(QUOTE)

I hope that cleared things up!

**(/quote)

Sorta. You did refute points I never made, talking about traitors.

Neither both would kill each other and then the cydonians would clean up

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Quote

Originally posted by Freelancer:
**Neither both would kill each other and then the cydonians would clean up:p

**

Cydonians? They're too busy with Lethe to do any attacking of their own. Lethe would take out Cydonia if it even tried to open up additional fronts. They'd spread their forces too thin.

Besides, the Rebels would win, and none of this would apply anyway!

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May the world never rest in peace.

Rebels would win because they are more determined to free themselves from the tyranny of the Confeds. Plus, there ships, while they may not be as strong as their confed counterparts, are faster and have about the same weapons. One time, I wasted two fed cruisers with five frigate escorts with nothing but a rebel destroyer that happened to be in the system and my maxed out reb cruiser.

btw, tallgeese is a pimp name. Gundam Wing kicks @$$!