Something that is probably one thing that Ambrosia is really weak about is that there are no games for Windows. From what I've heard, Windows programming is mostly easier, and it would make the EV Multiplayer much easier to develop. I know there have to have been half a million different people saying, "Oh ya, we got EV multiplayer up in a few months," then their website disappears off the face of the Earth and you never hear from them again. I know Ambrosia thinks that being loyal to Macintosh is good and all, but they're really missing out on a huge part of the computer industry. I now have a Windows, and my Mac doesn't have the Internet anymore. I have a plug-in that is totally huge, and doesn't have any bugs, that I've been slowly expanding over the past few years, but I can't put it onto the internet because of Ambrosia's petty little pride. HBopefully this will ge through to people that Windows is OK.

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"Monopoly? The game?"
A Microsoft worker after being informed of the monopoly suit against Microsoft

Umm, ever see the code for a Windows C++ "Hello World" program?

I have. It still gives me nightmares.

Programming for Windows, at least in C++, is not easy.

Ambrosia is making a dual-platform game, Demoins Rising (sic).

I don't think Ambrosia needs advice from a 1 post newbie...

Now please leave, otherwise prepapre for massive flamming from those not as kind as me.

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"Never...have we faced two contenders who are so boring and insipid." -Fidel Castro, on George W. Bush and Al Gore.
AIM-OctoberFost
Yahoo Messenger-OctoberFost
(url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/octoberfost")http://www.geocities.com/octoberfost(/url)

I think Wampa has a very valid point. I dont know about ease of programing and I wont pretend to... but the fact is that the majority of PCs run Windows 95/98 and by making games as Mac-only Ambrosia is missing a large market of people who would be happy to play. Its all well and good that they are making deimos rising as dual-platform, but IMHO EV is the best Ambrosia game. So, speaking as one who searched the internet for an emulator just to play EV on my windows-based PC (after playing on my cousin's mac) I think a win or at least dual platform EV Mp game would be a great idea!

-Owen

---Today's Messages brought to you by the letter 'O'---

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Ok, one more thing... please dont flame me, I want level-headed, rational responses.... Why are you Mac users so Anti-Windows? I have never seen a windows user with the same product-loyalty as Mac users. I personally dont think loyalty is an issue, I just use windows because its what Im used to and its the best for games. So why is it that whenever someone says anything about Windows you get a chorus of "winblows sucks!", "Down with the evil Gates!", etc?

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---Today's Messages Brought To You By The Letters 'C' and 'K'---

It is near impossible to forgive a company who stole our software, then turned it into a completely bloated and buggy operating system, and somehow still managed to sell it better than we did.

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Exquisite dead guy, rotating in his display case
Exquisite dead guy, swear I saw his mouth move
Exquisite dead guy, outside my high rise apartment
Exquisite dead guy, hanging from a sky hook

(url="http://"http://boards.gamers.com/messages/overview.asp?name=jivesboard")Official Resistance Webboard(/url)

Quote

"It is near impossible to forgive a company who stole our software, then turned it into a completely bloated and buggy operating system, and somehow still managed to sell it better than we did."

Did you write the code for Mac OS? Well, unless you did, you can't say that the company stole "our" software. And as to Windows being a crappy OS, its not that bad. I'll admit that there are a bunch of stupid bugs, but Microsoft obviously did something right because their product sold. So, like I said before, I'd love some intellegent responses.

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---Today's Messages Brought To You By The Letters 'C' and 'K'---

To Cpt-Kolath: When Anon was talking about "our" software, he was showing his love for the MacOS, which is something you don't see very often from PC users.

Your assumption that Microsoft is doing something right is problematic. I admit, their marketing is without peer.

The problem with Windows is far more than a few bugs. For Windows 2000, it's more like 63,000 bugs (I learned this from a PC publication.)

Furthermore, Windows have always been the features-lite operating system. Support for multiple monitors was introduced in Windows 98 whereas the MacOS had it since 1984. This is merely one out of a boatload of things I can talk about. I can pick on Windows 98 by calling it "Bugfix 98." (Again, a PC magazine started it, not me.) I can cite the ridiculous price they charge for an operating system. I can point out how Windows NT disabled a US destroyer 3 years ago due to a divide by zero error. I can point out the library of viruses waiting for a Windows system. I can remind everyone of Melissa and Love Bug. I can point out the numerous security flaws. I can...

All this, and the fact that Microsoft stole innovation from "OUR" (Yes, I'll use "our." If I'm egotistical, I would've called it "mine.") operating system is why many Mac users despise the Windows platform.

I agree that there is a greater selection of games for Windows. Then again, maybe not. After all, Mac users can resort to Virtual PC if they have to whereas there is no comparable good Mac-emulation software for some exclusive Mac software titles. All this plus Connectix's Virtual Game Station add up to a great gaming experience for Mac users.

I got no problems with pc's as a platform, but the windows OS is bodgy to the extreem. If you wanna use a pc, use linux (i think i spelt this wrong). I am a mac user but at school we use pcs and there fine.

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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

Quote

Originally posted by Cpt_Kolath:
**

Quote

"It is near impossible to forgive a company who stole our software, then turned it into a completely bloated and buggy operating system, and somehow still managed to sell it better than we did."

Did you write the code for Mac OS? Well, unless you did, you can't say that the company stole "our" software. And as to Windows being a crappy OS, its not that bad. I'll admit that there are a bunch of stupid bugs, but Microsoft obviously did something right because their product sold. So, like I said before, I'd love some intellegent responses.
**

What they did "right" to sell their Pretty Crappy OS is called a "destructive" monopoly by the US DOJ for threats to make people and companies sell "winbloze 95/98/NT/2k" on their products!
Mike

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"Laughter is in the ears that hear"-The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever

(This message has been edited by msalter (edited 08-17-2000).)

I guess I didn't mean to blow things up like this. I personally, have no problem with Windows or Mac. They each have their own ups and downs: Windows computers have "Illegal Operations" while Macs have "Bomb Outs". I don't think you can say one is better than the other, but one is bigger than the other, and that's what I was trying to get at. As for pricing, after the monopoly suit goes through, Microsoft computers will be a lot cheaper. As for the programming, the biggest thing I've ever done was EV with ResEdit, so I can't say I'm an expert on the subject. I merely suggested it because a post said that EV Mulitplayer would be much easier to create on Windows-based programming. And I'm glad to hear that Ambrosia is at least starting to create Windows games, but first they should convert all of their older games to Windows, rather then start new things. Stuff that got us hooked on Ambrosia stuff, example EV, could get their Windows market started, too. By the way, try not to diss me too much. I was a Mac user once, too, and still am, so I'm not a complete alien or anything

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"Monopoly? The game?"
A Microsoft worker after being informed of the monopoly suit against Microsoft

i know this won't go over well, but i must agree with the earlier statement that programming on a pc is easier. the c++ example stands, but c/c++ are the same regardless of the platform. the difference is that, because of the larger user basis, there are many more programming languages available for win and linux platforms. if those languages could be ported to the mac it would be complete, but i have to do all my programming on my ibm pos b/c the languages i like only exist in windows and linux. it'd be really nice to be able to write in euphoria on a system which knows that 1+1 is not 2.00000839, but that's a ways off and not many people use euphoria anyway. i don't want it to seem like i agree with the idea of putting all the effort into advertising an os and not bothering to make it work, but i must admit that microsoft was declared a monopoly, which means it has an absolutely huge client basis. that's a lot of support that ambrosia could be getting and a lot of people they could be helping because, face it, those people need help

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if tin whistles are made of tin, what's a fog horn made of?

Quote

Nighthawk wrote: "i don't want it to seem like i agree with the idea of putting all the effort into advertising an os and not bothering to make it work, but i must admit that microsoft was declared a monopoly, which means it has an absolutely huge client basis. that's a lot of support that ambrosia could be getting and a lot of people they could be helping because, face it, those people need help"

I agree with what Nighthawk is saying here. It is because of the massive client base that uses Windows that Ambrosia should release games for Windows. I'll also admit that windows does have tons of bugs and Mac OS is better in that respect. But I still maintain that Windows is the best OS because almost all great games have been released for Windows (with the exception of EV and a few others). As a gamer, windows is the only way to go at this time (but hopefully something better than Windows and Mac OS will come out).

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---Today's Messages Brought To You By The Letters 'C' and 'K'---

Here's something for you to ponder: Most profesional software is developed on the Macintosh, up to and including much of Microsoft's coding which they then port back into a PC format, that's why we can get the good emulators. Have a nice day!

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Exquisite dead guy, rotating in his display case
Exquisite dead guy, swear I saw his mouth move
Exquisite dead guy, outside my high rise apartment
Exquisite dead guy, hanging from a sky hook

(url="http://"http://boards.gamers.com/messages/overview.asp?name=jivesboard")Official Resistance Webboard(/url)

hats what I hear, but I personally don't belive it.

Ambrosiasw doesn't need to "broaden their horizons" to the PC world. They are fine as it is, and shareware doesn't go over well with PC's.

Oh, and at the Democrat comvention, the news reporter was saying "And the votes are checked once again with all those PC's below the large centeral com... excuse me, not pc's, but VERY nice looking iMacs..."

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"Those tought from a book may be read like a book"

Era for EV: (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/rhysmctharin/erahome.html")www.geocities.com/rhysmctharin/erahome.html(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by OctoberFost:
**Umm, ever see the code for a Windows C++ "Hello World" program?

I have. It still gives me nightmares.

Programming for Windows, at least in C++, is not easy.

Ambrosia is making a dual-platform game, Demoins Rising (sic).

I don't think Ambrosia needs advice from a 1 post newbie...

Now please leave, otherwise prepapre for massive flamming from those not as kind as me.

**

It would be prudent to note that with the introduction of the ANSI/ISO C++ standard two years or so ago, all one has to do is recompile the code for each platform with only several compatibility issues involved. By the way, the Mac OS finder uses over 3 million lines of code. "Hello World" is merely a beginning...you think C++ is scary? Considering what it does, Perl is a massive programming effort for a small task.

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(url="http://"http://www.macaddict.net")www.macaddict.net(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by mad cow disease:
**It would be prudent to note that with the introduction of the ANSI/ISO C++ standard two years or so ago, all one has to do is recompile the code for each platform with only several compatibility issues involved.
**

Sure, the game logic itself (ship movement math, for example) might compile cross-platform, but "several compatibility issues" is an understatement. Unless you use something fairly platform-independent such as OpenGL, the graphics code for the PC and Mac versions of the same game are vastly different. Combine that with the completely different way each platform handles sounds, files (especially if the resource fork comes into play) user input, etc., and you'll see that porting a game between platforms is much more than a trivial recompile.

mcb

Quote

Originally posted by mburcheK6qdY:
**
mcb**

Whoops! Forgot to hit Tab between typing my username and password there. Don't bother trying to gain access to my account, I've already changed the password.

See, even talented and handsome game designers make mistakes sometimes.

mcb

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Matt Burch
(url="http://"mailto:mburch@ambrosiasw.com")mailto:mburch@ambrosiasw.com(/url)mburch@ambrosiasw.com

Quote

Originally posted by mburch:
**Whoops! Forgot to hit Tab between typing my username and password there. Don't bother trying to gain access to my account, I've already changed the password.:p

See, even talented and handsome game designers make mistakes sometimes.

mcb**

Now go to preferences in the upper right, and use the bloody cookies..

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ĄNADIE ESPERA A LA INQUISICION ESPAŃOLA!

AIM: evandrewm
ICQ: 85380562

Production:

Program is done on a MacOS, Unix, Linux, SunOS, or BeOS computer.

Program is moved to a Windows comp and compiled.

Program is put out for Windows.

Badly done port then brings the program back over to MacOS, Unix, Linux, SunOS, or BeOS.

Argument such as this post ensues.

That's production according to what programming I've seen and what programming I've done. It's far easier to program in major languages like C, C++, and Java on any platform BUT Windows. But lucky for Windows users, and unfortunate for smart people, it's simple to just switch the program over to Windows if it's been made from the start for it.

Ambrosia is just making it all that much easier by programming for the Mac in the first place.

Firstly, we would like to state that our post is not intended to choose sides, although how can one help but to biased in such an argument. Hopefully the opinions below can make some sense in such a clouded area. Ok, here are the views of people who have been using Mac's since the very first release, and whose friends and family HAVE worked for and with Apple many times.

Programming for a Mac and programming for a PC are similiar and quite different. For anyone out there who believes them to be closely knit (there are languages that are cross-platform), you may be slightly mistaken. The MacOS and Windows 9*/NT are NOT THE SAME. While their interfaces are similiar (too similiar in some cases), one cannot judge a book by its cover (an old expression but fitting). Windows 98 has moved away slightly (We think there are more like 70,000 various bugs in Windows 98, not 65,xxx but who is counting? ) from being DOS based, but Windows 3.1 and 95 were really dependent on DOS for many command lines and execution procedures. MacOS is not like that, which makes programming in some cases difficult.

We must all think to ourselves, because (at least not to our knowledge) no one talking on this forum is BOTH a Mac and PC programmer, not hard-core C++ at least. Frankly Wampa, your opinion is probably shared by many PC/Mac users who are forced to use a PC or Mac (whichever is opposite of their home computer choice) at work. If we all think it is so easy to write cross-platform software, then why aren't games like Half-Life, Soldier of Fortune, Jedi Knight and various other programs available for both Mac and PC computers?

ANSWER: Because it is not as simple as some of you make it out to be. Standards introduced in C++ still do not allow games to simply be written for a PC and have a few lines changed for a Mac version. Honestly, if you believe this, then why would a company not spend the extra week of coding, and increase profits by 10-20%? If we can think of this on a shareware game board, then don't you think professionals at multi-million or BILLION dollar corporations have considered this?

Ambrosia should program for whichever platform they want, and they have excellant reasons why they choose to use Mac's (which we don't know, and they can tell if they want).

Now, one post did mention using UNIX/LINUX as a basis of programming. Frankly, this is a very good suggestion! Mac OS X will be quite different from other Mac OS operating systems, and is based on some core LINUX code. You can purchase Linux for your PPC for under $30. Its about $50 for a PC. Using Linux as your primary operating system IOHO doesn't make sense. (We use Linux for PHP (Hypertext PreProccessing for dynamic webpages) and MySQL database programming, but otherwise we stay away from it). Instead, using it too play games makes quite a bit of sense, especially if Mac OS X is based on some of its key features.

Anyway, we are NOT saying Ambrosia should stop Mac programming, we are just stating that Linux is not a bad compromise (in terms of coding).

Well, we apologize for the long post, but we will sum up with our biased opinions, which everyone on here seems to have shown (NOT BAD!). We prefer using a Mac because of its simplicity. We don't need to be bothered by anything while we are coding, and the Mac seems like a good choice. (Also, 2 Dual G4 500mhz towers in a beowolf cluster just plain kick ASS for Unreal games).

If you want a game to come out for the PC, at least give a good long list of reasons why it should. Simply saying that Ambrosia is loosing a whole chunk of the computer industry doesn't float. The Mac community has been based for years and years around SHAREWARE. How many Mac shareware sites are there, compared to PC shareware sites. Its about the same ratio as PC market share vs. Apple market share. Do you really think that EVO would hit off with a computer culture based around $30 highly rendered (although short on plot or anything else) first-person shooter games?

We don't.

Well, we hope our opinions make sense, but if you would like any further information, or just feel like replying with hateful comments, drop us an email!

PS: Don't bother to call us Newbies because we have only 1 post. It's just a new UserName for a group of old members.

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The Macology.com Team
Macology - The study of all things Macintosh

(This message has been edited by The Macology.com Team (edited 08-22-2000).)

(This message has been edited by The Macology.com Team (edited 08-22-2000).)