Hi folks,

Here's a quick "general opinion" question -- what do most of you consider to be an acceptable file size limit for downloading a game?

I realize this depends on a number of factors, including the speed of one's connection and the reputation of the game being downloaded -- i.e., is it worth the wait? -- but for my own game, I figured I'd try to come up with an approximate size that most people would be content with.

Of course, it will probably be aeons before my game is actually finished (if it gets finished ... knock on wood), but it would be helpful to know how many MB I should be shooting for.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

------------------
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." -- Plato

Noel -

IMHO it really depends on the game. I typically do not get daunted at a large file size. If it is larger than say 10MB and the game looks interesting, then I will set my machine up to download it at night(via my ultra-fast 33.6Kb dial-up. Woo!). If it is under then I usually will download it during the day and give 'er a try.

If the game is in my opinion bloated with what I consider useless garbage in order to artificially bump up its size(since a lot of times bigger is presumed better) then I get rather irritated and if there is a review system in place take liberty to vent on it.

My preference is for a game to have been optimized to be as small as possible without losing any features. And if the game is good enough then the time it takes to download it will be well worth it.

I realize this didn't really answer your question about physical size. But it is my opinion.

------------------
"In the mornings, when I'm usually wide awake, I love to take a walk through the gardens and down by the lake, where I often see a duck and a drake, and I wonder as I walk by, just what they'd say if they could speak although I know that's an absurd thought."
-- Conjunction Junction by Schoolhouse Rock

Quote

Originally posted by Noel Webster:
**Hi folks,

Here's a quick "general opinion" question -- what do most of you consider to be an acceptable file size limit for downloading a game?

I realize this depends on a number of factors, including the speed of one's connection and the reputation of the game being downloaded -- i.e., is it worth the wait? -- but for my own game, I figured I'd try to come up with an approximate size that most people would be content with.

Of course, it will probably be aeons before my game is actually finished (if it gets finished ... knock on wood), but it would be helpful to know how many MB I should be shooting for.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

**

(This message has been edited by Commander Arashi (edited 04-16-2002).)

A long time ago I decided to never download ANYTHING over a modem EVER again, if it was more than about 5 megs. The pain and annoyance just wasn't worth it, particularly since I live in a place that charges local calls by the minute (So a 5 meg download during the day costs me a couple bucks!).

I keep a list of files, programs I want. Then I find a T1 or a DSL somewhere and
get them all at once. Usually I do this at a local college library, but more recently I use my work-place's T1 OFF business hours.

Taking a trip to some place with a T1 once every few weeks or so is easy and efficient. Nice time to catch up on quicktime movie previews, too!

SO-- in summary-- I don't think games or other programs should ever be limited by space issues. Harddrives are cheap and reusable. Bloatware is annoying, I suppose, but make your program as big as it has to be. In twenty years, we'll laugh at calling 100mb big. Ten years ago the hard-drive on my Mac IIcx was, what, 20mb? And I thought that was HUGE. And I can still remember my brother looking at his spankin' new Mac SE and gasping: "This thing has a MEG of ram. A MEG of ram! Can you believe that? A MEG!" And remember single-sided 5.25 inch floppy disks? When DS HD 5.25s came out I thought I'd died and gone to heaven...

-d
------------------
--Insert pithy quote
here--

(This message has been edited by thebeagle (edited 03-05-2002).)

A long time ago I decided to never download ANYTHING over a modem EVER again, if it was more than about 5 megs. The pain and annoyance just wasn't worth it, particularly since I live in a place that charges local calls by the minute (So a 5 meg download during the day costs me a couple bucks!).

I keep a list of files, programs I want. Then I find a T1 or a DSL somewhere and
get them all at once. Usually I do this at a local college library, but more recently I use my work-place's T1 OFF business hours.

Taking a trip to some place with a T1 once every few weeks or so is easy and efficient. Nice time to catch up on quicktime movie previews, too!

------------------
--Insert pithy quote
here--

When I release my game, I plan on having a few methods of distribution:

• A demo version of the game, probably about 25% of the full product.

• One file download for all you broadband people. A stuffed installer.

• A segmented version of the above file, each about 5MBs in size for the dialup people.

• A CD to order, adding about $5 onto the registration price

• A hotline server with the demo version, the full version and the segmented files. Hotline allows download resumes, and is often quicker than downloading via HTTP.

It's all about options people, options.

------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you know we have something special for you at
Birdland this evening. A recording for Blue Note Records...
"Actions have reactions, don't be quick to judge, you may not know the hardships people don't speak of,
It's best to step back, and observe with couth, for we all must meet our moment of truth." - (url="http://"http://www.OHHLA.com/anonymous/gngstarr/moment/moment.gsr.txt")Guru(/url)

If you go over 10 megs, people, start worrying.
Basicly keep your file under 10 megs or split it up.

------------------
It's time for a new challenge.
(url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/benedwards/.cv/benedwards/Public/Ares1.2/StarsAreFire%3AC4.sit-binhex.hqx")The Stars Are Fire(/url)-A TC for Ares
...And so the human race reached for the stars, unknowing of the dangers that awaited them...

If you're on a server that supports resuming an interrupted download, the file can be 50megs or more. I'll just use ViaHTTP.

For a game that big, there better be some kick ass screen shots.

Some day I'll have broadband and it won't matter how big the file is.

-chuck

------------------
Grant me the strength to change the things I can, the peace to accept the things I cannot, and a Huge friggin' bag of money.

Interesting range of responses. I like the idea of having several distribution options, as that's probably the best way to reach the widest possible audience. My game is going to be freeware, so a CD-ROM version wouldn't be necessary, and I doubt it will take up that much space anyway. File segmenting and/or using a server that supports resuming interrupted downloads seems like a good way to avoid alienating dial-up users.

That being said, I'll still try my darndest to keep the file size as small as possible without sacrificing anything important to the overall makeup of the game. Just for the record, I'm working on a first-person graphical adventure as opposed to a scrolling tile-based game, which requires a lot of medium-to-large sized artwork. Right now, images for each location take up about 300k apiece, while full-screen stuff like the title page and interface graphics weigh in at a portly 500-600k. This, of course, is why I'm so concerned about the file size.

Many thanks for your comments and ideas.

------------------
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." -- Plato

Quote

Originally posted by Noel Webster:
**Interesting range of responses. I like the idea of having several distribution options, as that's probably the best way to reach the widest possible audience. My game is going to be freeware, so a CD-ROM version wouldn't be necessary, and I doubt it will take up that much space anyway. File segmenting and/or using a server that supports resuming interrupted downloads seems like a good way to avoid alienating dial-up users.

That being said, I'll still try my darndest to keep the file size as small as possible without sacrificing anything important to the overall makeup of the game. Just for the record, I'm working on a first-person graphical adventure as opposed to a scrolling tile-based game, which requires a lot of medium-to-large sized artwork. Right now, images for each location take up about 300k apiece, while full-screen stuff like the title page and interface graphics weigh in at a portly 500-600k. This, of course, is why I'm so concerned about the file size.

Many thanks for your comments and ideas.

**

You said you were working on a graphical game as opposed to a tile-based game. I assume this means you are doing all the background artwork/etc. for your game.

I wondered how you were doing it, what kind of programs you were using, and if you have any advice? I would much prefer full backgrounds to tile based 'mostly outdoors' type game. My attempts at drawing a convincing and quality indoor scene have been laughable at best. Any thoughts?

------------------
--Insert pithy quote
here--

Quote

Originally posted by thebeagle:
**...working on a graphical game as opposed to a tile-based game. I assume this means you are doing all the background artwork/etc. for your game.

I wondered how you were doing it, what kind of programs you were using, and if you have any advice?My attempts at drawing a convincing and quality indoor scene have been laughable at best. Any thoughts?

**

This might be a question for it's own thread...
As an alternative to drawing "convincing" art, have you considered using a digital camera (or even a web cam) to capture images from found objects, and then incorporate that into your game...? You could scan in anything you find at a hobby or art supply store. You wouldn't have to draw a single thing, it would all just be arranging.

------------------
Grant me the strength to change the things I can, the peace to accept the things I cannot, and a Huge friggin' bag of money.

Quote

Originally posted by chucky3000:
**This might be a question for it's own thread...
As an alternative to drawing "convincing" art, have you considered using a digital camera (or even a web cam) to capture images from found objects, and then incorporate that into your game...? You could scan in anything you find at a hobby or art supply store. You wouldn't have to draw a single thing, it would all just be arranging.

**

That would look pretty bad.

------------------
'It's dark. You might be eaten by a Grue.'

Quote

Originally posted by chucky3000:
**This might be a question for it's own thread...
As an alternative to drawing "convincing" art, have you considered using a digital camera (or even a web cam) to capture images from found objects, and then incorporate that into your game...? You could scan in anything you find at a hobby or art supply store. You wouldn't have to draw a single thing, it would all just be arranging.

**

Huh. Might be rather fun... but the end result would look very, err, experimental!
If I had enough photoshop skill I could perhaps take real-world textures and make them into convincing, game-style graphics... maybe.

------------------
--Insert pithy quote
here--

Quote

Originally posted by thebeagle:
**
You said you were working on a graphical game as opposed to a tile-based game. I assume this means you are doing all the background artwork/etc. for your game.

I wondered how you were doing it, what kind of programs you were using, and if you have any advice? I would much prefer full backgrounds to tile based 'mostly outdoors' type game. My attempts at drawing a convincing and quality indoor scene have been laughable at best. Any thoughts?
**

Basically, I'm drawing all the graphics using plain ol' pencil and paper and scanning them into the computer using my bargain-basement UMAX Astra 6400 (I bought it new for $45). Dirt-cheap scanners are the way to go for game artists, because you don't need to worry about resolution quality above 72 dpi.

Once scanned, I color the images using a Wacom Intuos and Painter Classic, which comes free with all Wacom tablets. Of course, Painter Classic doesn't have all the features of the full version, but it's still pretty dang powerful for bundleware. The Intuos tablets are kind of pricey, but I've also worked with the Graphire, which retails for less than $99 and would probably meet the needs of most game artists.

Using a graphics tablet raises the obvious question about why I need the scanner to begin with, since I might as well be drawing everything on the computer, right? Unfortunately, although I've worked with graphics tablets for almost four years, I still can't draw nearly as well with a tablet as I can the old-fashioned way, and I've met a lot of other artists who share the same opinion. Thus: pencil for drawing, tablet for coloring.

To be fair, the style of my game is very cartoony and anime-ish. If you're going for a more photorealistic approach, you might need something more advanced than the system I'm describing, not to mention very good drawing skill. However, no matter what style you're aiming for, don't feel you need to be a Photoshop guru or own thousands of dollars of high-end equipment to make good digital art. With a little creativity, even the simplest graphic software can produce eye-catching results.

To see an example of the technique I'm describing, check out my post in the Coldstone Image Gallery. It's a little rough around the edges, but should give you an idea of what's possible.

------------------
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." -- Plato

(This message has been edited by Noel Webster (edited 03-09-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Noel Webster:
**Basically, I'm drawing all the graphics using plain ol' pencil and paper and scanning them into the computer using my bargain-basement UMAX Astra 6400 (I bought it new for $45). Dirt-cheap scanners are the way to go for game artists, because you don't need to worry about resolution quality above 72 dpi.:)

Once scanned, I color the images using a Wacom Intuos and Painter Classic, which comes free with all Wacom tablets. Of course, Painter Classic doesn't have all the features of the full version, but it's still pretty dang powerful for bundleware. The Intuos tablets are kind of pricey, but I've also worked with the Graphire, which retails for less than $99 and would probably meet the needs of most game artists.

**

(This message has been edited by Commander Arashi (edited 04-16-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Commander Arashi:
**Cool shoes. I've been heading towards CG because I draw so durn slow. I use a "float" method in photoshop for coloring artwork; means a lot less trouble staying within the lines. a simple tute on it here...http://home.earthlin...3/linetute.html

Exciting to see all these games actually created and in release!**

Excellent tutorial. Are you perchance working on an anime-style game? I'd love to see something in the same visual style as the picture in the tutorial.

Random thought: It would be neat if several of us artsy types could bang our proverbial heads together and create some kind of 'graphics tutorial compilation' for the Coldstone add-ons/downloads page. Each of us could contribute something describing the technique(s) we're using, and we could compile the whole thing into a single pdf file for reference. Since questions about graphic design seem to pop up quite a bit, it seems like this might be a worthwhile endeavor.

I'll volunteer my services ... anyone else interested?

------------------
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." -- Plato

On a previous tangent, what about setting up a CD distribution system for people to custom order their CDs with various games, so instead of getting a cd with twenty games on it, you could pick and choose which ones you want. I was thinking, maybe, five dollars for five games on one CD and then a smaller charge for every game after that...and that's just what the distributor would pull in. The artists could set prices, the end users could set CD selections of games, complete and shareware, the shareware for nothing extra, however, if the users wanted any shareware at all, the CD would go up a dollar, and they'd get all of the shareware that the distributor had. We could even make it so that the shareware came on the disc for free, so that all of the games that were NOT purchased would have their shareware versions on the CD. The only problem I see with this is getting the money from the recipient of the check to the various artists. That would be hard...and we could allocate CD burning to the distributors, so that each would get paid according to how many CDs they burned. Download the order, the server marks it off as reserved, and if not completed in XX days, delete reservation, and put it up for grabs. We could explain the distribution method on the main page, making sure that they knew that the orders that cost more would be the ones that got done first, brining in more revenue for the developers/artists and more cash for the distributors. I realize that this was rather long, but for everyone who is on a 36.6 or any otherr modem, d/l ing many Coldstone games is going to be expensive. Ohhh, the shareware CD, standing alone would be a certain fee too...like Ambrosia's shareware CD. Coo....

Contact me at animanous@hotmail.com if you have questions.

Size - think about what you ask. POG - 128 megs compressed - about 250 megs uncompressed. A small commercial game today is 20- 50 megs, most are 300-700 megs in size. Lets move into this century and not last - graphics and game play are what make a game not just game play.
------------------
Squak - the seal
makes the noise not
the approval

(This message has been edited by Squak (edited 03-31-2002).)

Quote

**
...hundreds of megs of files after compression...
**

I don't want to point fingers or throw cold water (hey, you could injure yourself doing both at once!) But the point of a tiling engine is reduced file sizes.

I dunno; for me, part of the challenge and fun is seeing how efficient I can be in slimming files and stretching resources. And it sure makes it easier to download.

------------------
You see a Grue.

Quote

Originally posted by Beeblebrox:
**That would look pretty bad.

**

There's a software program called Canoma (from Metacreations--does Corel have it now along with Bryce?) that's pretty good at this kind of thing. I'm not a big fan of the finished products, but it does look very similar to the graphics in modern 3D games.

Alex.

------------------
(url="http://"http://www.alexanderwilson.com")www.alexanderwilson.com(/url)