Sf often imagines 'simpler' governmental systems (ie, ones hardly seen in the modern world) in the future: empires, kingdoms, feudal systems, and so on. Sometimes this is because the plot mimics historical events, and so the politics of that period are also copied. But, in my opinion, in many cases the reason is just that such systems are (or seem to be) easier to 'bring to life'.

Modern governments are hugely complex. Not only is there the apparatus of state, but also a variety of political parties and their associated terminology, plus non-governmental (or supra-governmental) organisations … Few could keep track of them all in even in their own country. For example, can you 'complete' (without research!) each of the following (UK-related) acronyms? (They start easy, but get trickier.)

GB & NI; HM; MoD; RSPCA; QUANGO; DEFRA; DUP; NEC; SDP; MORI.

I think non-UK citizens will be doing well to get two or three. But I wouldn't expect someone from this country to get more than half either.

Or some international ones (which, in theory, we should all know)?

UN; NATO; IMF; IAEA; OECD; IPCC.

Okay, I'll stop now. I'd be surprised if anyone could get all of those from both lists without looking them up - especially as at least one of them (NEC) can stand for (much) more than one thing! Certainly many of them would be a bit of a mystery to most of those whose lives they affect.

So, we live in such a hugely complicated political system that we can barely keep track of all the organisations that are involved in running it, let alone understand how all those organisations are structured or function, or how decisions are arrived at by them individually or collectively.

And so, how can one person be expected to invent an equally (or more) complex system in its entirety in order to create a 'plausible' future political system? Even if you did, you would either end up boring your reader to death with this detail, or confusing your reader every time another organisation shows up in the story (unless you pause every time to explain what on earth it is …).

By contrast, something like a kingdom seems attractively simple. Even better, it's clearly based upon distinctive personalities (the monarch, the members of the nobility, the king's advisors, etc) rather than what might seem to be faceless organisations. The down side is that this is no longer speculative fiction: it's the politics of the past in a story with only the trappings of the future. Also, once you start telling the story of kings, dukes, princes and generals, you find yourself telling one in which 'ordinary people' neither appear nor have any consequence.

If we look at the main EV scenarios, we can see that each has shied away from the problem of creating a 'real' future polity:

• The original EV's Confederation is labelled from the outset as corrupt; so it doesn't matter how it's political system might work, because it's been established that it's a sham. We learn next to nothing about how either it or 'the Rebellion' are organised.
• Override's United Earth has a few nods towards the existence of a complex bureaucratic system (such as Sovietesque contractions like AlRelDep - Alien Relations Department; and ColRegDep - Colonial (Registration(s)? Regulation(s)? Even I don't know!) Department), but how that system might actually function remains unknown. Other polities are left even more obscure: we call it the Voinian Empire , but does it even have an Emperor?
• Nova explores politics in more depth, but still avoids the main problem. Its Federation - like the original's Confederation - is a sham at the time of most of the plot: it's really being run by 'the Bureau', and so again we don't have to worry about how the system works (as it's corrupt). The Aurorans form a kind of feudal confederacy, split up into Houses run by a kind of warrior aristocracy. The Polaris have a caste-based system, headed by a conclave of caste leaders. Both of these latter two are old systems - and states today which have traces of such features are trying to modernise away from them. How today would we regard a state which assigned, as the Polaris do, every citizen a 'career path' at the end of their education, from which they could not significantly deviate for the rest of their life?

But the truth is that these various evasions of the problem are probably the best and only alternative in the context of a game like EV. It's a game about space battles, and the politics is only important in as far as it causes those battles to happen. Creating a convincing, complete modern (or postmodern) political system is an enormous task and yet, at the same time, all the details of that system would have to be kept 'out of sight' of the end-user - who just isn't interested (nor should he be) in any of them.

This post has been edited by pac : 19 January 2007 - 09:21 AM

Well, personally, I like the EVO model (incidentally, the "Soviet" model for abbreviations could also be the US Navy model, e.g. DesGruPacFlt, or ComStANavForLant, which is a NATO organization all together). But I digress. I think it's nice to give the player a glimpse at fairly complex inner workings of a government by simply mentioning different departments or supergovernmental organizations, but not going into much detail. For instance, knowing that there is a Interstellar League or a Galactic Supreme Court on the one hand, or mentioning the Department of Interstellar Travel or a Trade and Commerce Agency gives the player a feeling of being involved in a large, complex world, whether or not they know too much about it. It can also help with the plot, for example, in my plug, I don't want the player to be able to jump out of the initial system until an initial mission string is completed (there will probably be more than one option for that). So, in order to justify that, there's an imaginary "Additional Protocol" to an an Interstellar Anti-Piracy Convention which forbids the selling of hyperspace capable craft to those with insufficient credentials, which, of course the player does not start with.

Incidentally, for a Yank, I guess I'm pretty strong on British politics. I even knew that NEC stood for Nippon Electric Company.

@flavius, on Jan 19 2007, 06:26 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

Incidentally, for a Yank, I guess I'm pretty strong on British politics. I even knew that NEC stood for Nippon Electric Company.

I'm not quite sure what the smiley indicates here, but, no, that's not the NEC I was looking for

I know. That's the NEC that makes computer monitors. A little joke on my part. Incidentally, NEC stands for lots of things, in my part of the world, it's the New England Conservatory, or the Northeast Conference. Odds are it's the National Something Council or Committee. Is SDP the Social Democratic Party? I thought they were German.

Anyway, more broadly, my point is that adding little tidbits of governing information can help make the environment more open. Simply throwing acronyms at the player ("Take the ALDM to the KSAMF and then use the AKFN to make the NKSl ANVT") can be very annoying, but if they are long enough for the player to make a good guess at them ("I just got a message from NorStelInt that enemy forces are preparing to make a stab at Sector Five, now I want you to rendezvous with LineGru 8 at Rigil Kent and head over there.") makes the player feel like he or she is actually a member of the organization with whom the character is talking. Even better, as I suggested to is throw out names that hint to a very real system, but not necessarily give more than a hint ("The members of the Rim Social Reform coalition just made a statement to the other members of the Synod.") which finesses the need to write long narratives about history, while, at the same time, showing that there is a big and complicated world out there.

@flavius, on Jan 19 2007, 10:24 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

Incidentally, NEC stands for lots of things, in my part of the world, it's the New England Conservatory, or the Northeast Conference.

I know - it stands for lots of things everywhere, as I mentioned above. Just take a look at wiki's disambiguation page. I remember a major football team was sponsored by NEC in the '80s, but I have no idea which NEC (not a very successful sponsorship ).

Quote

Is SDP the Social Democratic Party? I thought they were German.

It is Social Democratic Party, although they're now defunct (a coalition party which lasted from 1981-88). I think practically every country in Europe has a social democratic party (if not two or three), a good proportion of which will have that acronym (in fact, wiki alone lists ones for Germany, and Finland, Croatia )

Quote

It's a game about space battles, and the politics is only important in as far as it causes those battles to happen. Creating a convincing, complete modern (or postmodern) political system is an enormous task and yet, at the same time, all the details of that system would have to be kept 'out of sight' of the end-user - who just isn't interested (nor should he be) in any of them.

I think you have hit on the crux of the matter Pac. Granted a bit more info could and maybe should be in the Descs to allow the folks that are looking for the info a way to find it. Or you could even have a backstory written into the preable or the readme. However during gameplay is really not maybe the best place as it distracts the player from what they expect to be doing which is playing the game. If the player should have that info and it becomes important to understand more about the situation he or she is in and would lead to a choice the player must make to continue or to select a storyline then it would be appropriate only so much as it would be limited to what the player must know.

An old addage comes to mind... Less is more. - Let the players imagination fill in the details where possible. This way a player is not taken off guard by a political or religious position he or she may be at odds with. Let them decide what it means. Give them just what is needed and let the player fill in the blanks. Most of the best entertainment plots do the same.

@pac, on Jan 19 2007, 02:15 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

GB & NI; HM; MoD; RSPCA; QUANGO; DEFRA; DUP; NEC; SDP; MORI.

I think non-UK citizens will be doing well to get two or three. But I wouldn't expect someone from this country to get more than half either.

Or some international ones (which, in theory, we should all know)?

UN; NATO; IMF; IAEA; OECD; IPCC.

Ooh, can I have a go, I've got some experience in the UK.

G reat B ritten and N orthern I reland; H er M ajesty??; M inistry o f D efence; R oyal S ociety for the P revention of C ruelty to A nimals; ??; Department of FRA... ; D emocratic U nionist P arty; ?? (maybe N ational E lection C ommision??); S ocial D emocratic P arty; ???

And of course:
U nited N ations; N orth A tlantic T reaty O rganization; I nternational M onetary F und; ??? (I'll feel like dolt when I look it up); O rganization for E conomic C ooperation and D evelopment; I nternational ?? C riminal C ourt

Now on topic:

On an interstellar scale, I have real trouble imagining vast economic empires or trade federations spanning multiple star systems, the way we're used to from the EV series and the rest. It seems to me it will just be too slow and expensive to transport goods between star systems in bulk, relative to the value of those goods. All the large or far flung empires I can think of (that lasted any period of time) were economic units, somehow. The political union, or federation of states, or system of colonies justifies the expense of maintaining it because they're part of a system of trade. The trade is what gives distant communities an interest in each other.

But the costs of transporting goods around in space will just be too high. To get textiles (for instance) from planet A to planet B you'd have to move them up the gravity well, across an untold number of light years, and down the other side; you might as well make your own from scratch. Maybe a few high value, low mass items could be traded back and forth, but I find a large and diverse interstellar market unbelieveable. So in my view: no interstellar political units.

I guess the only way I can imagine interstellar trade working is if energy became incredibly cheap.

Militarily, I can see the value in defensive treaties, like 'NATO for the Alpha Quadrant' where two planets agree to protect each other if either is attacked. I could understand some form of military domination, like orbital blockades to keep a potential enemy down. But administrative control, or shared government, just seems worthless to me. Two planets don't have shared interests that way.

Of course, I don't want to start thinking too realistically or I'll pull the orchestra out from under the entire space opera.

So, I imagine isolated worlds with very loose alliances, and space itself as an ungoverned, lawless place, an endless, un-conquered frontier inhabited by an exclusive subculture, small enough to operate by the tribal rules of human behavior.

And about politics in a game or plug in, I think you could get a lot of mileage from limiting the players scope. I enjoy ARPIA this way. There's definitely a sense of a political situation happening around the player. Of course, because we've played the stock scenario we know some of the details, but as Al'Ario we only see our corner of it. And because Pace has put some thought into the special world of ARPIA, I feel immersed. Somewhat immersed, given the limits of the engine. A few salient details, moments when the player's view opens up and he gets a glimpse of his context and the role he's playing in other characters' stories, I find these very rewarding.

@bubbles, on Jan 20 2007, 09:13 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

But the costs of transporting goods around in space will just be too high. To get textiles (for instance) from planet A to planet B you'd have to move them up the gravity well, across an untold number of light years, and down the other side; you might as well make your own from scratch. Maybe a few high value, low mass items could be traded back and forth, but I find a large and diverse interstellar market unbelieveable.

This is a very good point.

However, the cost of moving goods once they're out of gravity wells could be very, very low - just as, in the world today, the cost of shipping things by sea is trivial (the much shorter road or rail distances are much more expensive). Of course, to achieve this we need to assume an extremely cheap convenient interstellar drive - but we have to do this in the first place to have travel times of days rather than decades. (Of course, in EV games fuel is very cheap in comparison to the profit that can be made from the most basic trade route.)

But there should be no getting round the costs of getting goods to orbit. Even if you have a more efficient system (space elevator?), there is still an unavoidable energy cost (although, if we're assuming an impossibly convenient hyperdrive, why not more?).

Of course, EV has always ignored the question of gravity wells entirely, and however huge your spaceship, it can still land on planets with no cost. (Although, in the Nova engine you could use the 'docking fee' to simulate the higher cost of landing on a planet as opposed to docking at an orbiting station. You could also use Require/Contribute flags to stop really big ships from landing on planets (but they could dock at stations). There wouldn't be a way of making the cost of landing proportionate to ship mass though )

Anyway, I would agree that bulk goods like generic 'food' make for unlikely interstellar trade goods. But rarer commodities, and manufactured goods could certainly be shipped.

And of course, we shouldn't forget that - once you have an established space presence - a huge amount of industry can be moved to orbit. Raw resources can be mined from asteroids, and processed in orbit. These goods are produced without any 'gravity well' cost, and so offer that much better a margin. There could perhaps be an extensive economy outside the gravity wells, with only the most valuable items coming up (down being easier, since you can build single-use, no-return vehicles in orbit too) from planetary surfaces.

I'm putting a flag on this topic, i'll be answering during the week, when i'll have everything read.

EDIT : read all, i'm gonna think about my answer. more coming soon

This post has been edited by pearce : 21 January 2007 - 11:29 AM

It's true I was counting without the miracle discovery of the warp drive. Maybe I changed the terms of the conversation a bit, I wasn't necessarily talking about the universe best suited to an EV style game.

Actually there might be ways of getting around the problem of the gravity well. I remember in Scientific American a number of years back I read about an idea for using a giant lens to collect sun light, focus it, and use it to heat the air under a bagel shaped vessel. This was one of the ideas for a replacement for the Space Shuttle. Also, you might be able to use counter-weights on a space-elevator to decrease the energy needed to run a payload into space. (Got that from the Kim Stanley Robinson "Mars" trilogy) I don't know if these kinds of technologies could support enormous cities in space, though.

But if space is mostly going to be a business venture – it certainly isn't a nice place to settle down and have two kids and a hovercar – maybe that means that local government in space will be a lot like the old mining towns that were essentially run by one big firm. Or lumber towns, or any factory towns, or Detroit... Or will the population be too spread out even for that, with Robots doing most of the work?

I had to write a constitution for mars (I was colonizing it) for law class. I've pasted it below.. Its missing parts of it, which I can't find (mainly the basic rights section)

Andrew
Preamble to the Constitution
The Constitution of The Mars Colony is the supreme law of The Mars Colony, and any law that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution is, to the extent of the inconsistency, of no force or effect. The Mars Colony is a democracy, and the entire planet will always be a democracy.

Note: The people of Mars have voted and agreed to adopt and modify portions of earth constitutions. The following regulations about government and law are partly based on the Canadian Constitution.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the Mars Colony “and any law that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution is, to the extent of the inconsistency, of no force or effect.” (Canadian Constitution Act, section 52)

The four levels of government are: planetary, provincial, regional, and municipal. At first, only one level of government, planetary, will exist. The other levels of government will become active as population increases. When the local population exceeds 10,000 people, the population will be divided into municipal governments of less than 10,000 people each. When there are less than 10 municipal governments, they will answer directly to the planetary government. When there are more than 10 municipal governments, they will be split into two groups of five and each group will answer to a regional government. In this case, the regional governments will answer to the planetary government. When there are more than five regional governments, they will be divided into groups. Each group of five or less regional government’s will become a province. The provincial governments will answer to the planetary government. No other levels of government will be added. This is subject to change. As the society grows and develops, the planetary government will review the structure of the levels of government, and make appropriate adjustments.

For the purposes of elections, the Mars Colony will be divided into planetary, provincial, regional, and municipal ridings.
Each planetary riding will elect one representative for the planetary government.
Each provincial riding will elect one representative to the provincial government.
Each regional riding will elect one representative to the regional government. Each municipal riding will elect one representative to the municipal government. Ridings will be divided according to census data every census.

A census will be conducted every five years.

Each level of government will be democratically elected to a five year term or less. The leader of the government can call the election whenever he/she wants, but it must be at least once every five years. There will be no limits on the number of times a politician can run and/or be elected. Politicians will be restricted to running for one position per election. Any politician that has been elected may resign his or her position at any time, giving one month’s notice.

No member of government is obligated to vote on any issue, and every member of government has the right to vote on every issue.

There shall be a sitting of Parliament and of each legislature at least once every six months.

“In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a (planetary or provincial government) may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the Parliament or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.” (Canadian Constitution Act, section 4-2)

Amending Formulas for the Constitution

Each level of government can amend its own internal constitution if two-thirds of the members of the level of government that is having its constitution amended agree with the amendment.

For constitutional amendments that affect the majority of the colony, a referendum will be held. At least 60% of people who vote in the referendum must vote for the amendment to allow it to be passed. In addition to this, the planetary government must agree, unless 80% of the citizens vote in the referendum, and the referendum shows that 75% of voters want the amendment passed.

For constitutional amendments that only affect some people, and not the entire planet, only the people who are affected must agree to the constitution. The affected levels of government must agree to the amendment. Governments that do not agree to the amendment will not be affected by it.

Procedure for making laws

1. The proposed bill is introduced by a member of government and read to the government.
2. The bill is debated and changes are suggested.
3. The bill is modified in accordance with step 2.
4. The modified bill is read to the government, debated, and voted on.
5. If the majority of government members agree to the bill, then the bill becomes law. If the majority of members disagree with the bill, it does not become law.

Divison of Government Powers
Planetary
1. Control of public debt and property
2. regulation of trade and commerce
3. Taxes for planetary revenue.
4. borrowing of money on the public credit
5. postal service
6. census and statistics
7. Militia, military, and Naval Service, and defence
8. The fixing of and providing for the Salaries and Allowances of Civil and other Officers of the Government of Canada.
14. Currency and Coinage.
15. Banking, Incorporation of Banks, and the Issue of Paper Money.
16. Savings Banks.
17. Weights and Measures.
18. Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes.
19. Interest.
20. Legal Tender.
21. Bankruptcy and Insolvency.
22. Patents of Invention and Discovery.
23. Copyrights.
25. Naturalization and Aliens.
26. Marriage and Divorce.
27. The Criminal Law, except the Constitution of Courts of Criminal Jurisdiction, but including the Procedure in Criminal Matters.
28. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Penitentiaries.

Provincial
1. Taxes within the province for provincial revenue.
2. The borrowing of Money on the sole Credit of the Province
3. The Establishment and Tenure of Provincial Offices and the Appointment and Payment of Provincial officers.
4. The Management and Sale of the Public lands belonging to the Province and of the Timber and Wood thereon.
5. The Establisment, Maintenance, and Management of Public and Reformatory Prisons in and for the Province.
6. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institutions in and for the Province.
7. Regional Institutions in the province.
8. Issuing of business Licences in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial, Regional, or Municipal Purposes.
9. Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:
(a) Railways lines, Canals, Telegraphs, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province:
( Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country:
Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.
10. The incoporation of Companies with Provincial Objects.
11. The Solemnization of Marriage in the Province.
12. Property and Civil Rights in the Province
13. The Administration of Justice in the Province, including the Constitution, Maintenance, and Organization of Provincial Courts, both of Civil and of Criminal Jurisdiction, and including Procedure in Civil Matters in those Courts.
14. The Imposition of Punishment by Fine, Penalty, or Imprisonment for enforcing any Law of the Province made in relation to any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section.
15. Generally all Matters of a merely local or private Nature in the Province.
16. The province will assign powers of jurisdiction to the regional government.

Erm, Mars Colony seems to become Canada towards the end.

Edit: And I suppose I should add something like, '… but that's about right, as it's about as cold' ?

This post has been edited by pac : 22 January 2007 - 04:15 PM

I just want to see steam ships capable of traveling between Mars and Great Britain.

What do you mean by steam ships ? like the ones one the mississippi in the 1770's ?

@pearce, on Jan 23 2007, 06:41 AM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

What do you mean by steam ships ? like the ones one the mississippi in the 1770's ?

How about this?

Ah, so I guess Nikola Tesla invented space travel, after all!

@tiresmoke, on Jan 19 2007, 08:51 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

An old addage comes to mind... Less is more. - Let the players imagination fill in the details where possible. This way a player is not taken off guard by a political or religious position he or she may be at odds with. Let them decide what it means. Give them just what is needed and let the player fill in the blanks. Most of the best entertainment plots do the same.

You won't have an argument from me. But if the creator has an idea of what's going on, you'll have a more consistent feel. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I do any writing, I always know more than what the reader gets to.

@pac, on Jan 22 2007, 04:13 PM, said in Government Systems and Politics:

Erm, Mars Colony seems to become Canada towards the end.

Haven’t you heard? Ever since our constitution was put out under GPL, everyone else just re-uses it instead of going to the trouble of writing their own.

Thats pretty much what I did.

Time to catch up on EVDC stuff:

I think that people in new spobs (we're not limited to actual planets, there are moons and dwarf planets too, not to mention the meaning of planet is in a bit of flux, in particular after the fateful UAI decision there is no definition for an extrasolar planet...), wherever they come from (in particular, but not limited to, country) will develop a common settler mentality much like that of the original 13 colonies, and end up seceding from the home planet (not necessarily as violently as with the US, mind you, perhaps more like Canada). This is probably going to be the case in all settled spobs. They will probably keep some kind of informal ties, similar to the UN or Commonweath, but I don't see them having much unity, regardless of the ease of space travel ("These blockheads on Earth have no idea what life is like around here with the -70 °C temperatures that can happen at times and the local life forms!"). That doesn't mean that there can't be divisions inside these spobs, but they will be more like those between the various US States, though that won't preclude wars (which will be more like civil wars, but intra-spob secessions may very well happen).

That is, of course, if no external threat happens. If some external force (other humans? Aliens? Other?) enters in play, then it will force the various bodies everywhere to unite somewhat more, though the way will indeed depend of speed and ease of communication and people/bulk matter transfer. Depending on this ease, more or less centralised bodies will appear.

Speaking of what the player should be told, I rather liked the Avernum/Exile series (which appear to be womewhat known around these parts), in particular one thing I loved was how things appeared simplistic at first, and I assumed they just were, but how we progressively discover how deep things go and how things are not that simple. Though this is in all three (didn't get enough time to play the fourth yet), in the second game in particular (hmm, better use the spoiler tag)

Spoiler

you realise how much the brilliant but paranoid wizard Garzahd is behind all of the Empire war: at the beginning you only know that the Empire is attacking Avernum to get rid of the people in them after some adventurers aided by Erika assassinated the Emperor; but you eventually know that Garzahd grew jealous of the other wizards and was afraid they would steal his secrets, and developed political ties which enabled him to send the other proeminent archwizards (Erika among them) into exile in Avernum, thinking he would get rid of them this way. And after the Emperor's assassination, Garzahd led himself the expedition against Avernum, which leaves you thinking that you and all of Avernum are in fact caught in a wizard struggle.

P.S.: I don't think the Fifth Element is a very good reference... In this movie the government could be anything anyway as the story does not depend much on being a particular government.