An Open Dialogue on Developer Relations and Windows/Mac Development

mrxak

In the spirit of peace and productivity, I would like to invite all of you to a discussion here on a number of issues very important to our development community, and the greater Nova community as a whole.

Before I begin, a few ground rules. This is a sharing of information and ideas, not an argument. There will be no Mac vs. PC debates, and any that appear will be karmaslapped twice. I'm not kidding around. Let's all be respectful to each other. I know that the people on this forum are some of the best and most helpful members of this web board, so I expect you all to behave that way.

Okay, so what is this about? Mainly, I want to understand what things are wrong with plug-in development these days. What are the problems, how do we solve them, and if we can't, why not?

I also have a few questions, and I encourage all of you to voice your own questions as well. For instance, is there a viable way of porting plug-ins back and forth between Macs and PCs? It seems to me that there is, so why do some people seem to be having problems? Am I wrong? Is this information unclear?

This can also be used to figure out what's missing. Do we need any other development tools for either platform? Are the current ones not doing what we need them to do? Is there some killer utility that needs making? Are the current manuals and tutorials insufficient for beginners? Are they even available? Who can fix this situation?

So let's get our thinking caps on and improve how things get done. There are a lot of intelligent and capable people here, so I'm confident that we can get done what needs to get done. Please tell us of any problems you're having, or any solutions that you know of.

Mazer Rackham

I can't speak for the Mac vs. PC plug-in issue, but I think a major barrier to making original plugins is the fact that Nova set the bar so high. I made plenty of plugins for the past two versions, but the only things I've made for Nova have been a couple of tweaks to the standard scenario. Because ATMOS did such a good job, I don't really think I could make something even remotely up to par, so the motivation really isn't there as much. Second, again since ATMOS did such a good job, there really isn't much that you can do to improve the base scenario. In the old games it was relatively easy to add in more ships, or more systems, or more outfits, et cetera. In Nova, since everything is so integrated into the setting, it is very difficult to do so. Actually, something that might be helpful is a mention of things left deliberately 'open' to plug-in developers, such as the Shard War (or the Council in EVO.)

Also, it has become far more work to make a plugin for Nova. Since the original scenario seems much more closed than in previous Escape Velocity games, the only way to let the creative juices flow seems to be creating your own TC, a daunting task in previous games and a Herculean task in EVN.

Finally, I do have one beef with the Bible and the various programs that I've seen: they don't list id numbers of related resources. For example, it would be quite helpful to list, under the mďsn resource, the IDs of the cargo STRs and how they work, recommended id sets for the various dëscs, a mention of the fact that you can have both drop-cargo text AND misn-completion text at the same place (that came as a surprise to me).

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To quote a pillar of American society: D'OH!

slouch

I certainly can't tackle all of those questions, but I'll take a shot at a few.

Most of the problems I have encountered/heard of between Mac and PC development revolve around Stuffit 7.5. Where to get it and getting the cross platform settings straight.

In a few instances, I have encountered plug-ins on the Nova Add-ons page that have illegal characters (for a PC) in their title, and will not convert properly.

In at least one case (possibly more) there are 'mistakes' in plug-ins made on a Mac that only cause a crash to occur on PC. An example of this would be the out of range spin resource in one of the PlugPack plug-ins.

As a PC user, another concern I have is that the PC version has now fallen two updates behind the Mac version. Now there haven't been too many engine changes, but enough that I would be hesitant to release anything has a beam weapon in it. (Just an example). Who knows, the PC update might come tomorrow, or maybe six months from now. I'm almost afraid at what might happen if we fall three updates behind. It may take years to catch up.

That being said, I generally don't have any problems that I blame on the platform I use. For the few that have come up, I move on pretty quickly.

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mrxak

Quote

Originally posted by Mazer Rackham:
**I can't speak for the Mac vs. PC plug-in issue, but I think a major barrier to making original plugins is the fact that Nova set the bar so high. I made plenty of plugins for the past two versions, but the only things I've made for Nova have been a couple of tweaks to the standard scenario. Because ATMOS did such a good job, I don't really think I could make something even remotely up to par, so the motivation really isn't there as much. Second, again since ATMOS did such a good job, there really isn't much that you can do to improve the base scenario. In the old games it was relatively easy to add in more ships, or more systems, or more outfits, et cetera. In Nova, since everything is so integrated into the setting, it is very difficult to do so. Actually, something that might be helpful is a mention of things left deliberately 'open' to plug-in developers, such as the Shard War (or the Council in EVO.)

Also, it has become far more work to make a plugin for Nova. Since the original scenario seems much more closed than in previous Escape Velocity games, the only way to let the creative juices flow seems to be creating your own TC, a daunting task in previous games and a Herculean task in EVN.**

That is an issue, but Nova was originally intended as a plug-in itself. That's why it isn't too open. I do think there are places that things could be added, and we've seen it happen. I'd also say that TCs don't necessarily have to be huge, and they don't necessarily have to live up to Nova standards. A TC could just be a few systems and a few new graphics and sounds.

I suspect that it will keep us busy enough to keep the community going for a good while, which I think will be a good thing. One way to do plug-ins for Nova might be to simply extend and enhance the current storyline, specifically to use features unused by the default scenario. People might find creative juices flowing from that.

Quote

Finally, I do have one beef with the Bible and the various programs that I've seen: they don't list id numbers of related resources. For example, it would be quite helpful to list, under the mďsn resource, the IDs of the cargo STRs and how they work, recommended id sets for the various dëscs, a mention of the fact that you can have both drop-cargo text AND misn-completion text at the same place (that came as a surprise to me).

Do you think you could write up that information and make it available? Perhaps we need to create an "open source" bible to include needed information?

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
Most of the problems I have encountered/heard of between Mac and PC development revolve around Stuffit 7.5. Where to get it and getting the cross platform settings straight.

Can you be more specific?

Quote

In a few instances, I have encountered plug-ins on the Nova Add-ons page that have illegal characters (for a PC) in their title, and will not convert properly.

Can you be more specific?

Quote

In at least one case (possibly more) there are 'mistakes' in plug-ins made on a Mac that only cause a crash to occur on PC. An example of this would be the out of range spin resource in one of the PlugPack plug-ins.

Can you be more specific? Is the proper range in the bible? Are there any other such issues that cause incompatibilities? Has the developer been notified?

Quote

As a PC user, another concern I have is that the PC version has now fallen two updates behind the Mac version. Now there haven't been too many engine changes, but enough that I would be hesitant to release anything has a beam weapon in it. (Just an example). Who knows, the PC update might come tomorrow, or maybe six months from now. I'm almost afraid at what might happen if we fall three updates behind. It may take years to catch up.

I have no inside information, and I'm not a beta tester for the windows version of Nova, but I think that an update will be coming fairly soon. If it is two versions behind, I'd also expect them to leap-frog to the latest version. I wouldn't worry too much about falling behind even more.

what_is_the_matrix

I think that part of the problem is that Nova has been expanded so much that the total number of resources necessary to be edited to make a full TC has doubled, tripled or more. For instance, UncleTwitchy's outstanding Starfleet Adventures has a scope far greater than any TC created for any of the EV's to date. The galaxy's so large that even at EV's farthest zoom, it's impossible to view the entire thing on a single (or even four) map screens. Also, as no one is making money from a project of such scope, it's difficult to keep people motivated for such extended periods of time, especially if the team is made up mostly of inexperienced developers who don't realize the scale of their undertaking. Unfortunately, the list of "experienced" developers is quite short and the list of "experienced" developers still active in the EV community is even shorter. The human factor is incredibly large, so only the most persistent developers can "stay in the game." On a more platform based argument against TC development, I believe that the list of experienced PC users is far shorter than Mac users. This is simply due to the fact that PC development until recently was not possible. As I'm in and around the SFA forum on EVula's forums, I can see, however, that there aren't as many problems with cross platform SFA. This is probably due to the fact UT's using several PC users as well as several Mac users to privately alpha test the plugin before it gets released to the general public. There are still problems that have been plaguing it, such as PC Nova's char problem, as well as bugs that simply weren't uncovered in the Nova scenario.

I was reading a magazine on game development, and there was an interesting graph. On the vertical column, there was drive to succeed, and on the horizontal column was experience. They then divided the graph into four parts. People who were considered low in experience and high in drive were considered ambitious newbies. People high in experience and low in drive were simply called specialized experienced workers. People high in experience and drive were called superheroes. People low in both should not be on the development team at all. Newbies, and specialized experienced workers are relatively common. Newbies, while driven, aren't necessarily able to do as many things, or as quickly as your experienced workers. Your experienced workers who aren't driven are likely only going to do the things that they are good at and are interested in. It's bad management to assign them to something else because they won't get the work done. Superheroes are rare and should be cherished. They need to control and guide the newbies and motivage the specialists (usually by getting work done). If a worker doesn't perform, he or she needs to get motivated again, or be dropped. For instance, I tend to specialize in graphics (although I'm trying to get back into the development side), but in one project that I joined, I just couldn't get motivated, so I dropped off. I was just hindering the others because I wasn't performing the job (If I remember correctly, I got one graphic completed in the time the other artist finished three).

As for the tools available, there are many good ones, but there is a great spread in capabilities. I've used ResEdit for years, and while it's very complete, and very capable, there are stability issues on OSX. w00tware's tools are great, but again they're for OS9 only. I haven't used EVONE mainly because, well, there are other things I'd rather spend money on, especially since I won't be making any money on my project. Mission Computer is great, but it's incomplete, and for someone who crippled his computer (stupid me reformatted, upgraded and haven't bothered to reinstall OS9), it just doesn't have all the features I need. I haven't used EVNEW, so I don't know anything about it. Something that would be nice would be to have a plugin debugger in the editor. It doens't have to be complicated, maybe find resources that point to nonexistent resources so that you don't waste so much time saving, quitting, starting Nova, crashing Nova, sifting through the debuglog, and starting the editor again.

Unfortunately, as Escape Velocity gets more complicated, the number of TCs released will dwindle. Projects take so long that most die before they reach fruition. The only way that I can think of stimulating the development community is if Ambrosia sponsers some sort of development contest for prizes of some sort. These would tend to be smaller scale plugins to keep timeframes down, but it would produce a bloom of development. Check out "Make it Unreal" contest. Stuff like that. I dunno.

Matrix

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"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought -- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen

(url="http://"http://htf.mondominishows.com/valentine/main.asp?seed=7375&serial;=214877")The funniest valentine I've ever gotten.(/url)

Admiral Benden

I find that the two largest constraints for plug-in developing are time and tools.

What Matrix says about motivation holds true for SWN. Usually, if one of us prods the other couple, we'll get work done because we realise exactly how great this plug can be and how much we are holding it back by not working. Thusly, motivation is not much of an issue. However, finding the time in which to work is difficult. We've all got school or work that we have to go to for however many hours a day, I think Echo actually does his homework(I don't), and we've also got our lives and projects of our own in different fields. The sheer amount of work that is required in Nova but was not in Override is certainly a setback when this time factor is considered.

Building on the time factor is tools. One of the most common things I've heard developers complain about is the lack of a carbon or cocoa version of ResEdit. This would speed development so much that I would shell out 40$ for the program if I had to. Not having to boot up Classic, not having to back up your files every five minutes for fear of an immenent crash, the saved processor cycles(for those of us on older machines) all would make a new version of ResEdit a very valuable tool, especially combined with NovaTools. I've tried EVONE and MissionComputer, but neither satisfied me. MissionComputer seems unfortunately limited in several ways(like inability to see rlë*'s), and what EVONE adds is not worth the 10$ that Arios wants for it.

As for the conversion part, I've heard of PC users not being able to easily convert SWN REAL PRIZES because of the symbol. It's something I'll keep in mind for releasing KS and SWN, since though we don't support PC we would like for them to enjoy our work.

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Und kein Engel singt für mich.

Zacha Pedro

I consider myself to be experienced and not too motivated. As for the time and social problems, I can't really tell, never having been involved in a serious project nor having really started something I couldn't do.

Tools are not an issue for me, since I've decided that my iMac will forever remain in OS9 (for a myriad of reasons), and NovaTools is just fine for me. The Stuffit thing should not be a plug developpment problem, just a problem of using plugs already released, as everyone should distribute their plugs in .bin.zip format (as (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/004814.html")Azratax(/url) and (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum18/HTML/000013.html#burgerbill11-04-200211:59PM")BurgerBill (/url)advises us to do, even if the .bin now needs to be converted it still is appliable), so Stuffit on PC is not (should not) be an issue for plug deving.

Now, what I thing we lack, besides a complete OSX-native editor (on which I can't talk since I don't run Nova nor any editor on my OSX computer, and you people voice it enough), is some help guide that would get people strated by telling information that does not fall on the Bible nor on the plug editors documentation (things thought as obvious such as basic information on resources and how plugs add to the data files, as well as things to get started, actually much like the EV plug FAQ, except for Nova), as the Bible is technical documentation best considered a reference, and it's not up to the plug editors authors to help people with this.

For porting plug back and forth, I first downloaded Dacid Arthur's rez-to-Mac converter, and since BurgerBill released it, his Mac flatten to rez (Mac to rez), and I've had no issue with either (though flatten locks itself in an infinite loop if we ask it to convert a blank plug; yes I know who is crazy enpough to attempt to convert a blank plug? answer: me, as I wanted to know more about the rez format).

In conclusion, I think that the thing which is lacking the most is some starting guide. And the best thing is that, unlike a new killer plug editor that would run on DOS, Windows 3.1, Win32 compatible XP and Longhorn when it will be out, Mac68k, PPC classic, OSX, Odd Unixes, Linux, BeOS, C=64, Apple )(, Game Boy Advance and NES (what we're all longing for ;)), some miracle motivation potion, or an easier way to convert plugs, we can actually do it, together, here. The guide I imagine would be constantly driven by this philosophy: "learning by getting your hands dirty". Simple as that: no 10 page of introduction before anyone begins, rather after telling the guy he needs a plug editor, a registered copy of Nova, and the Bible ready, we begin by letting him edit some simple resource (oütf would be best), editing the simlpliest fields (such as price, mass, etc...). Then we introduce more complicated things (such as, editing hex flags) as we hit them. The second philosophy would be "no real tutorial, instead we tell what the field stands for, and you see what value they have in the standard scenario. Now guess which value you should give to make a cheat plug (or anything else)". At most the guide will suggest, never order to make anything, as it's the best way to learn, otherwise the guy would just be entering data we ask it to enter in fields we ask him to enter it in, and learn nothing. The third would be "test everytime what it does". That is, save regularly and test what the engine does with your plugs. If it fails to load/load the pilot/etc..., then something you just did is deeply wrong.

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The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url)(url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum25/HTML/000003.html#ZachaPedro05-18-200409:42AM") (/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things money can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Mastercard.

(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 06-01-2004).)

Badanov

There are problems with PC and EVN, both in the usage of EVN, and in plug development. Dittos to Mazer Rackham's analysis.

The topic is "Developer Relations and Windows/Mac Development." Frankly, imho, developer relations are wanting between platforms.

Here is my estimation of the problem: A game user wants to have the total experience of using a game "right out of the box," so to speak. For the newbie PC user of EVN that isn't exactly possible. And he should be able to expect it, just as he does with any other game he buys.

ATMOS created a wonderful gaming experience, but that isn't the totality of the EVN experience-- just check the Ambrosia Add-Ons page to see what I mean. After you play the major threads and are now in love with Nova, replayability becomes the issue. There are all these TC's, patches and utilities and plugs and cheats to enhance the EVN experience, and 99% are set up for Mac users. I understand that the game was created on and for Mac, but there is a problem of rising expectations that ports over to PC users. Simply put, The PC user wants what Mac users take for granted, the ability to download a package from Ambrosia or wherever, copy it to the Plug-ins folder and just play. But what he finds instead, is a learning curve. And a cursedly complicated one at that. With no set of answers all in one place that are in English.

What Joe-PC-user wants is a game, and finds now, that he has signed up for a year-long Mac-to-PC porting mini-course. This is a shame.

Somewhere there should be a PC-user's "clearinghouse" for information, the very existence of which doesn't rile Mac users. It seems that the prevalent (sp?) attitude is this: We've ported our game over to you; we've included PC Converter in your EV Nova folder; we've made the Bible available, what else do you want? Stop whining! Make your own plugins!

We PC users have probably become a pain. Constantly asking the same questions over and over. Whining and complaining. But stop for a minute and think-- there may be inherent and systemic reasons for this. It not a fault issue.

Dealing with the fact that there are indeed barriers to full enjoyment (by "full enjoyment" I mean the same level of enjoyment that Mac users can count on) of EVN for PC users, shouldn't cause a PC vs. Mac controversy.

Somewhere, in an accounting office at ATMOS, Contraband, or Ambrosia, someone should be thinking that cross-platform replayability of EVN amounts to profit. (Rule of Acquisition number 197.)

This Windows/Mac Development problem may well be in reality a new market penetration problem. If more PC users were buying this game, would cross-platform development be an issue? If this were not an issue, would more PC users buy this game?

~Badanov

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Posted Image
"Moose and squirrel must die!" B. Badanov

Terek E`Ban

Quote

Originally posted by mrxak:
**In at least one case (possibly more) there are 'mistakes' in plug-ins made on a Mac that only cause a crash to occur on PC. An example of this would be the out of range spin resource in one of the PlugPack plug-ins.

Can you be more specific? Is the proper range in the bible? Are there any other such issues that cause incompatibilities? Has the developer been notified?
**

Dont worry about that Ive been informed a long time ago and this issue will be fixed in the next version.

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FluffyWithTeeth

Quote

Originally posted by mrxak:
There will be no Mac vs. PC debates, and any that appear will be karmaslapped twice.
(/B)

Does this mean I can say BeOS is better than both (j/k)

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Pah!
I spit on you and your
fancy sig!
Pah!

Mazca

Quote

Originally posted by Badanov:
**< snip>
**

I agree with most of that. Personally, though, I think most of the blame lies with two parties.

The first is Contraband - I'm personally of the opinion that they did a shoddy job of the port and that seemingly the testing was inadequate. PC Nova does basically work, but it has a huge array of bugs, ranging from the minor (cut-off dialog box text) through the significant (serious frame-rate problems on many fast PCs) to the rather major (complete absence of support for cron resources, and unexplained crashing if Quicktime Internet Extras aren't installed). They have also been appallingly slow in releasing updates to address these issues.

The second is Aladdin. The recent versions of StuffIt, particularly for Windows, have been truly abysmal: bug-ridden, mysteriously missing features, and with a selection of horrible incompatibilities. This means that many Windows users have serious problems getting Mac plugins into a usable state for conversion.

Overall though, I think some sort of "clearinghouse" for Windows information would be a generally good idea. Make it obvious, and make it official, so if PC users ask the common questions we can politely and usefully direct them to it.

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-- ** (url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url)**

Zacha Pedro

Quote

Originally posted by Badanov:
**(snip)
**

It is not that much an issue of plug deving, as much as an issue of using plugs that have been released before PC Nova. Remember, just about everyone uploads in .bin.zip, and we can get rid of all this Stuffit nonsense for developpment. Speaking of that, dropzip also has the option of removing invisible Mac files when zipping (the .DS_Store, for instance), making one less thing the PC user has to take care of. And if the readme is in HTML, it will be cross-platform itself. I'm writing an article just right now about using old sound/sprite replacements originally made for Maelstrom, with Maelstrom GPL, and some of the things you have to do are crazy. Okay, I know people using an open-source project will have less expectations than the usual PC guy who just registered Nova, but still, bar the Stuffit nonsense, it's not that clumsy. The file has to be converted at some point from Mac resource format (the .bin (MacBinary) is just a way to ensure its integrity while going through the Internet) to rez, and it would just be nonsense to have to make two distributions (making twice the server space, people that download the bad one, etc...) or one distribution containing both (making still twice the server space and making people download the double of what is actually needed), thus there is to be a drag and drop somewhere.

Anyway, I've had to end my last post a bit quickly, so I'll continue it here:
If it loads, but does not do the effect you expected it would do, check the effect it does instead (if there's any), and try to make a connection with what you did, and correct the value accordingly. Such a guide is within our reach, we just have to actually write it. Anyone with me?

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url)(url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum25/HTML/000003.html#ZachaPedro05-18-200409:42AM") (/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things money can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Mastercard.

(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 06-01-2004).)

rmx256

ATMOS set the bar too high and MissionComputer is next to worthless. I'm still booting back and forth from 9 to Jag to get anything done with NovaTools and ResEdit. I haven't seen EVONE since it was in beta, and back then it wasn't much. I know that I really don't have much room to complain, but it's been these little things like this that sap my energy when it comes to sitting down for what little time I have avalible to work... I should be happy to have what I do but in the long run all I'm happy about is that ResEdit runs when iTunes does and fails to crash.

Personally I'm petrified that what I've worked on for nearly three years now (my TC that is) will never be given an appropriate chance because the bar was set that high by the stock Nova scenereo. I'm especially talking about the graphics. I'm at the point now where things are as complex in mine as they are in Nova (and could get more so, thanks to the little things that are present in the Nova engine that are lacking in EVO) but I'll be quite plain when I say forthright that my graphics suck. Not in that they posess a fundimental flaw, but they were originally intended for EVO (and again I reiterate that thier creator was kind enough to let me use them and for that I am quite grateful) so they are of the 8-bit 128*128 type, with nonbanking and nonflaring ships. Anyone who has Nova will instantly notice the relative lack of quality when compared to the stock scenereo. That's what gets me the most.
It's kind of hard to keep motivated when my wife looks over my shoulder and says 'that looks like crap'.
I guess my point is that the bar was set too high and that most people who only more-or-less have time to basically dabble in plugin creation no longer have the time to take the days of effort that I imagine even one ship requires (I wouldn't know, I tried for weeks in Mechanisto!), let alone one outfit picture of qualitly. It's probably not a lack of authors, or ideas, it't a glass ceiling that people are afraid to get too because we know just how hard it is to go through it. I'm probably rambling, or getting prepared to...

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Drinking causes hangovers.
I will uphold Ma'at.
Shemsu Hor.

pipeline

Quote

Originally posted by rmx256:
ATMOS set the bar too high
(...)
It's probably not a lack of authors, or ideas, it't a glass ceiling that people are afraid to get too because we know just how hard it is to go through it.

Sorry. I'll try to suck more next time.

Personally, I say bugger the graphics quality and just release it! There's more to a good plug than graphics, and many users will be more tolerant than you expect.

The other thing is that Nova was a plug (well, a TC). Yes, a big one. Yes, I hope, a good one, with a good, solid design ethic, but it was just a plug. We did it in our spare time with no money, and the dev_team was about four strong at any one time (regardless of what the credits say). We bought all our tools with our own hard-earned.

--

It's pretty apparent that the PC port of Nova is lacking. I'd like to apologise for that, but I can't really do so. You see, I had nothing to do with it. Contraband worked on it in complete and total isolation from myself and the rest of ATMOS. I think Matt Burch may have had some small contact with them, but not much. I wasn't even on the beta-testing list (I don't have a Windows PC). My only information about WinNova activities comes via way of the boys and girls at Ambrosia (our publisher, distributer and general all-round powerhouse team. :)). We generally find out what we need to know, when we need to know it. I think now, on reflection, that there are a few things I need to know.

So, we need:

Development tools for PC (and for Mac OS X too, really)
A solid way of porting plugs to both platforms easily
Functional parity between the Mac and PC versions

No small ask, but I think these are worthy goals.

I'll see if I can't bring some small influence to bear on this. I don't know if I'll have any luck. After all, Ambrosia make the final decisions on this stuff, and if it's not in their fecuniary interest, then they won't touch it; sensible, that.

best to all here,

Dave @ ATMOS

what_is_the_matrix

One other thing that will cripple Mac and PC cross-platform development is the fundamental differences between the Mac and PC. Mac and PC users can't work on the same plug and email changes to each other. There'll always be the clumsy and tedious process of converting plugins back and forth until someone comes up with a way of maintaining the open structure of the game that would be compatible on both systems. That'll never happen, but wouldn't it be nice?

Matrix

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"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought -- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen

(url="http://"http://htf.mondominishows.com/valentine/main.asp?seed=7375&serial;=214877")The funniest valentine I've ever gotten.(/url)

slouch

Quote

Originally posted by mrxak:
Can you be more specific?

Well, I'll try.

The "How to install plug-ins: Plug-in Porting Tutorial" that is in the Windows Nova Documatation folder has a broken link to Stuffit 7.5 in step 1. (It links to a now non-existant Alladin page). So, I understand why some PC users quickly disregard the rest of the tutorial, seeing as the very first step is wrong. Currently, the most reliable source for 7.5 is a Romanian site. (I'm guessing that only a small percentage of Win Nova players actually read Romanian). As a result, many users install Stuffit 8.x, which doesn't have the cross platform tab.

I can't recall specific plug-ins that I've had problems with, but I know there are problems where Win users need to sometimes unstuff, then re-stuff a plug-in to get it to the right format. (Run on sentence). This may occur when the plug-in is stuffed with out first being in a folder? Whatever the reason, .hqx extensions can be troublesome.

I think Zacha Pedro's solution is currently the best: let's remove Stuffit from the equation altogether by sharing Mac made plug-ins as zipped .bin files. Pretty much all compression programs can open .zip, and it will adequately protect the .bin file. Unfortunately, most of the plug-ins on the Add-ons page were not done this way. (Which is understandable, because it would not have been an issue for a Mac only game). But, not being a Mac user, I'm not sure how much extra work this is on your end.

The alternative would be someone having the good graces to host Stuffit 7.5, and make a link readily available to the users. (I'd much rather see the former happen).

Plug-in development on PC has been great with the release of EVNEW. I really can't compare it to the other editors, but it has been very easy to work with. Possibly the best 'feature'? Aprosenf released his code and encourages other programmers to pick up where he left off. So, there is hope for future development. (Unfortunately, I'm a thirty-something gravedigger (literally) and don't have anything near the required skills for this).

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Zacha Pedro

Quote

Originally posted by slouch:
**
Well, I'll try.

The "How to install plug-ins: Plug-in Porting Tutorial" that is in the Windows Nova Documatation folder has a broken link to Stuffit 7.5 in step 1. (It links to a now non-existant Alladin page). So, I understand why some PC users quickly disregard the rest of the tutorial, seeing as the very first step is wrong. Currently, the most reliable source for 7.5 is a Romanian site. (I'm guessing that only a small percentage of Win Nova players actually read Romanian). As a result, many users install Stuffit 8.x, which doesn't have the cross platform tab.
**

Problem is: Stuffit 7.5 used to be on Aladdin FTP, before being removed, then put again, then removed again. The tutorial is part of the distribution, and can't be changed to adapt yet another Aladdin nonsense (well, I know that companies, including Ambrosia, don't like obsolete versions of their products being used, but it's basically Aladdin fault for removing that feature). Since then, I've used and bookmarked (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum26/HTML/013015.html#")this topic(/url), that Belthazar kindly updates as broken links are found. I'd find a more english friendly download, but I tried some days ago and found nada. Maybe the next update for WinNova should make the tutorial link to this topic. BTW, the tutorial is also available online (with updated information) (url="http://"http://homepage.ntlworld.com/charles.tosh/convert/")here(/url).

By the way, for those that are interested in what is what:
-.bin, called (url="http://"http://www.lazerware.com/formats/macbinary.html")MacBinary(/url), is an packaging format invented long ago in order to transfer Mac files across networks (that had, and most of the time still have, limitations in name length, inability to transmit resource forks, lost of some Mac file metadata such as creator codes). It puts a 128 byte header containing metadata information and headers to the two forks, then the data fork padded to multiple of 128 bytes, then the resource fork padded to multiple of 128 bytes, all in the data fork. As simple as that.
-.hqx, or BinHex, is an encoding format that encodes on 7-bit; It's a little more complicated, but has too the advantage of preserving resource forks (what we need to share most Mac files, in particular apps, across the net). Notice neither of those two compress. .hqx was more popular than .bin before, but the trend has reversed. Also notice that, in order to run, a Mac app needs its resource fork (I think that even the code is there), so self extracting archives for Mac need be encoded first using either of those two.
-.sit is a compression and archiving (i.e. allows for multiple files, and a folder structure) format invented by Aladdin that has been widely popular, reasonably efficient, and keeps the resource fork. It is now outdated as it can't contain OSX metadata coming from Unix (such as permissions), and replaced by .sitx, though I doubt it will succeed given nowadays people distributing only for OSX use .dmg for distribution. Plus, for our purposes I think that 7.5 does not understand sitx, making a sitx version of a plugunusable on PC.
-.sea is the same thing as .sit, except is has a resource fork containing what it need to auto-extract...on a Mac. But Stuffit 7.5 for Windows recognises, when it unencodes the .hqx or .bin (that the self-extracting archive comes from) the sit in the data fork, and unstuffs it right.
-.cpt is the compact pro compression and archiving format, beforehand more popular than .sit but nowadays inexistant. Though it's self-ectracting format come with the extension of sea, making things tricky. You may meet some EV or EVO plugs compressed with Compact pro, but I doubt you will meet Nova ones. However, Stuffit won't uncompress those.
-.zip is a compression and archiving format invented too long ago for me to care. However, it does not support resource forks and Mac metadata, meaning it has never been used by more than a tiny minority on Macs.

Also, one thing to notice is that the readme is usually extracted pretty easily, so you can tell in it some instructions. And apropos of the of the .bin.zip: each relevant file (i.e. data files, but not movies nor intro music) is to be .bined individually, then everything zipped.

Oh, and remember: Aladdin: one l, two ds

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The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url)(url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum25/HTML/000003.html#ZachaPedro05-18-200409:42AM") (/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things money can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Mastercard.

(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 06-01-2004).)

Modesty Blaise

Quote

Originally posted by what_is_the_matrix:
**
I was reading a magazine on game development, and there was an interesting graph. On the vertical column, there was drive to succeed, and on the horizontal column was experience. They then divided the graph into four parts. People who were considered low in experience and high in drive were considered ambitious newbies. People high in experience and low in drive were simply called specialized experienced workers. People high in experience and drive were called superheroes.

**

I think we can help this issue by making good official tutorials to help people create things. Not just some random link in a post, but a web section dedicated to this.
I have gone pretty fast from a total newbie to a pretty experinced developer, and it took some late nights. I especially remember a many hour search on how to apply a spin as an explosion.

This can also help the newbies to become superheroes. As these tutorials often give general unsterstanding of the tools you are using.
I learned pretty much all i know from the addships 2.0 tutorial. As it gave me basic undestanding of Nova Tools.

Another issue I think is holding me back, is the fact that there is no list over used mission bits in EV Nova(at least not that i know of). Making extensions for Nova is therefore very stressfull.

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And then there were silence.................

(This message has been edited by modesty_blaise_us (edited 06-01-2004).)

Zacha Pedro

Quote

Originally posted by modesty_blaise_us:
**Another issue I think is holding me back is the fact that there is no list over used mission bits in EV nova(at least not that i know of). Making extensions of nova is therefore very stressfull.

**

I know some stuff like that (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/005389.html#Artanis05-28-200404:05PM")is documented(/url). You're right: such not very documented things tend to hinder plug deving, but documenting this does not fall on anyone, since it has nothing to do with the engine.

------------------
The (url="http://"https://secure.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/store/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item;=breakdown.html&BREAKDOWN;_SKUID=1480")Ambrosia Mac CD(/url) with other registrations - 5$. Paying for (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/")EV Nova(/url) as it's such a great game - 30$.
The (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/tshirts.html")1337 EV Nova T-shirt(/url)(url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum25/HTML/000003.html#ZachaPedro05-18-200409:42AM") (/url) - 22$. The (url="http://"http://w00tware.ev-nova.net/")NovaTools(/url) by wOOtWare to tinker with your Nova - FREE!
The feeling you're a Nova geek - priceless.
There are things money can't buy or that are free, for everything else, there's indeed Mastercard.

(This message has been edited by Zacha Pedro (edited 06-01-2004).)

slouch

Quote

Originally posted by Zacha Pedro:
Problem is: Stuffit 7.5 used to be on Aladdin FTP, before being removed, then put again, then removed again. The tutorial is part of the distribution, and can't be changed to adapt yet another Aladdin nonsense (well, I know that companies, including Ambrosia, don't like obsolete versions of their products being used, but it's basically Aladdin fault for removing that feature). Since then, I've used and bookmarked this topic, that Belthazar kindly updates as broken links are found. I'd find a more english friendly download, but I tried some days ago and found nada. Maybe the next update for WinNova should make the tutorial link to this topic. BTW, the tutorial is also available online (with updated information) here.

By the way, for those that are interested in what is what:
-.bin, called MacBinary, is an packaging format invented long ago in order to transfer Mac files across networks (that had, and most of the time still have, limitations in name length, inability to transmit resource forks, lost of some Mac file metadata such as creator codes). It puts a 128 byte header containing metadata information and headers to the two forks, then the data fork padded to multiple of 128 bytes, then the resource fork padded to multiple of 128 bytes, all in the data fork. As simple as that.
-.hqx, or BinHex, is an encoding format that encodes on 7-bit; It's a little more complicated, but has too the advantage of preserving resource forks (what we need to share most Mac files, in particular apps, across the net). Notice neither of those two compress. .hqx was more popular than .bin before, but the trend has reversed. Also notice that, in order to run, a Mac app needs its resource fork (I think that even the code is there), so self extracting archives for Mac need be encoded first using either of those two.
-.sit is a compression and archiving (i.e. allows for multiple files, and a folder structure) format invented by Aladdin that has been widely popular, reasonably efficient, and keeps the resource fork. It is now outdated as it can't contain OSX metadata coming from Unix (such as permissions), and replaced by .sitx, though I doubt it will succeed given nowadays people distributing only for OSX use .dmg for distribution. Plus, for our purposes I think that 7.5 does not understand sitx, making a sitx version of a plugunusable on PC.
-.sea is the same thing as .sit, except is has a resource fork containing what it need to auto-extract...on a Mac. But Stuffit 7.5 for Windows recognises, when it unencodes the .hqx or .bin (that the self-extracting archive comes from) the sit in the data fork, and unstuffs it right.
-.cpt is the compact pro compression and archiving format, beforehand more popular than .sit but nowadays inexistant. Though it's self-ectracting format come with the extension of sea, making things tricky. You may meet some EV or EVO plugs compressed with Compact pro, but I doubt you will meet Nova ones. However, Stuffit won't uncompress those.
-.zip is a compression and archiving format invented too long ago for me to care. However, it does not support resource forks and Mac metadata, meaning it has never been used by more than a tiny minority on Macs.

I guess that's part of my point; Average Joe Nova player shouldn't have to know all of this just to play a plug-in. It may seem very simple to some of us, but to many non-tech savvy users this is way too confusing. I'm sure there are plenty of users who don't spend much time on the Ambrosia boards, so they don't know what topics to bookmark, or whose private website contain what information. Most don't even know the right question to ask in order to do a successful search of the boards. So they ask the same questions over and over, and get the same persnickety responses over and over.

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