...and paying for them

EV Nova has been out for almost 2 years now, and it has an absolutely amazing engine, but there are, to my knowledge, still no (completed) total conversion plugins. This is a shame, really, considering the possibilities.

I've played EV in its permutations since Escape Velocity 1.0.3, and have a good idea of how much work making a total conversion involves - which is why almost all such efforts have failed, with the two notable exceptions being EV: Override and EV Nova themselves. Now the thing I'm really getting at here is: Do you think that people would be willing to spend money to buy a total conversion plugin with the same standard of quality as Nova? (Also, if anyone from Ambrosia is reading this, do you have issues with this idea?)

You might disapprove of this idea, considering that perhaps one is supposed to create plug-ins out of the sheer fun of it. Unfortunately, with that approach, one ends up with lots of half-finished plugins, but no playable ones.

Please-don't-eviscarate-me-I'm-only-asking.

Note that this doesn't mean I'm planning such a plug-in. I don't exactly have the time at the moment. But I've been curious about this for a while now (5 years maybe).

There are really two sides to this...

From a playing aspect, I'd certainly be willing to pay for a good TC for EV. I assume we're talking something fairly nominal, nothing exceeding the price of EVN in the first place. Obviously, anyone who even bothered to find this forum loves the game, and would probably be willing to pay the price of a dinner to get a fine upgrade for the game that they would use for hours.

From a TC making aspect, (which I am working on), would I want to get paid for it? Well, yes, obviously. Who doesn't want money. But, to more appropriately address your issue, would it help me complete my project? Probably not. I put just about as much time into it as I can afford to. I find that if I work on it anymore than I already am, the quality of my work goes down. So, I'll take money, but I don't think its going to help get QUALITY finished product done any faster.

From an Ambrosia/ATMOS perspective, I'd at least want royalties on any sales for new TC's. But that's just me. Also, what's to stop someone from posting a purchased TC on this, or another site, once they pay for it?

I wouldn't pay $30, but I might shell out $10 - I know it may sound miser-ish, but I'm not going to pay that much for something I can't look at and play with first.

I would definitely pay for a GOOD total conversion though - I'd have paid $10 for Polycon.

SeattleLightning, on Apr 8 2005, 01:21 PM, said:

I assume we're talking something fairly nominal, nothing exceeding the price of EVN in the first place.

Well yes, I was thinking $10 or something.

SeattleLightning, on Apr 8 2005, 01:21 PM, said:

But, to more appropriately address your issue, would it help me complete my project? Probably not.

In my own experience with large-ish projects, there comes a point in the latter stages of development where your work consists solely of bug-fixing, which is an immensely boring, frustrating, and necessary task. At this point, getting paid for it can be a good incentive, because the work is no longer fun in any way.

SeattleLightning, on Apr 8 2005, 01:21 PM, said:

Also, what's to stop someone from posting a purchased TC on this, or another site, once they pay for it?

Yes, that's the other question, of course. The simple answer, I suppose, is to make the plug-in shareware in the most proper sense of the word - there are no limitations to its use, but the user is, er, shamed into paying. However, the cynics say that no-one will bother paying if they're not forced to.

This post has been edited by Zarkonnen : 08 April 2005 - 08:29 AM

Zarkonnen, on Apr 8 2005, 08:28 AM, said:

However, the cynics say that no-one will bother paying if they're not forced to.
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Evil as it may be, I'm forced to agree. Main motivation for me to register Ares and EV:O were the restrictions. If I could have finished it for free... It's called being human.

Hmm...
-Nova was to be a shareware TC for EVO at first. Unforeseen events have made it noticed by Matt Burch and Ambrosia and it bacame the scenario for EV3 (at the time...)
-Martin Turner, probably the most famous plug-in developer, has made a topic about the issue before, you can probably find it by searching, though it's always good to bring the issue back to discussion.

Guys, let me put it this way.
If I were to ask 5$ for Arpia 2, how do you think you would take it?
(I know it's not a TC, but believe me, it could easily be so)

Arpia 2 is by far the biggest thing that is (almost) completed, and apparently, I am a great writer. Modesty_blaise_us, Requiem and pipeline are amazing at they graphics they come up with alone, and Darth Bob's landing pics are great (sometimes I wonder at Terragen's capabilities). It's even bigger than a few TCs in development, if you just take a look at the storylines.

I've spent many, many hours writing and coding and testing. I wouldn't mind being remunerated.

But I won't ask those 5$.

First reason, the dollar is going down, and I live in Belgium, in the Eurozone

Second reason, if I were to ask 5$, Arpia 2 would only be known by a select few who want to spend money on things that aren't even new games!

Third reason, you couldn't ask for money on copyrighted material. Aftermath, Final Days, Genesis and many other TCs-in-development show the past/future of EVN (though Genesis is way to early to have ties with EVN, but it's still somewhat based on info found there: Kel'ar Iy, Kont, ).

If plug-ins were not free, they would be less enjoyed. They would be used much less. And they would have to be darn good to charge money. Excuse me, but I didn't find Polycon great. Why? Did you even have a look at the storylines? Terrible if you ask me. I would never pay for that.

I would personally never charge for a plug-in. If you really think you should be compensated for a hobby, you need to spend less time on it and more time on your job.

With that being said, donationware seems to me to be the most viable option. That way, people who feel generous can show their support, while those unwilling or unable to play can enjoy it just the same.

The reason that FH2 has not yet been released is nothing to do with money -- it's just that there still seem to be a lot of bugs in the EVN engine. As far as I can make out (and please forgive me if this is incorrect) EVN was only fixed as far as making the Nova game was concerned. Features that aren't in the Nova scenario just don't seem to work.

Having planned out the whole of FH2 to take advantage of them, I'm relatively stuck.

That said, I think that paying me lots of money is generally a good idea, and I would support it.

From my view, you shouldn't charge for plugs unless you created (or purchased) the tools yourself and then used those tools to make your plug. This is how it is in the gaming world. Companies either purchase or create thier own tools. Very rarely, if ever at all, does a company just be given a tool to use for free. While making a TC does take alot of work, its no different than for other huge things people do for free, such as Roleplaying maps on Warcraft 3 with thier thousands of triggers and multiple terrains, full games that provide hours of entertainment created by people using a program known as RPG Maker 95, 2000, 2003, or XP, and people who make games like Continuenuum which could charge you $30 since its an online game that you can play against many many people all at once. However, its free and has no advertisements. Even Blizzard gave WC3 TFT users free maps, two bonus caimpaigns, and 3 new heros which they could have easily sold as a third expansion for the games. TCs are just like those, involving long work and to be released for free. When people start charging money on such things, you can expect most people to not pay for them. They'll either not bother or pirate them. And with how easy it is to get your hands on an EVN plug, pirating would be all too common should someone attempt to charge money for them.

Of course, the developers wouldn't mind getting paid cash for thier work. Nobody minds getting money. I wouldn't mind someone paying me a few dollars for my overly simple plugs. Of course, thats not going to happen.

UE_Research & Development, on Apr 8 2005, 07:41 PM, said:

I would personally never charge for a plug-in. If you really think you should be compensated for a hobby, you need to spend less time on it and more time on your job.

With that being said, donationware seems to me to be the most viable option. That way, people who feel generous can show their support, while those unwilling or unable to play can enjoy it just the same.
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I agree, I would never charge, I would want to share it with everyone, and it's hard to do that with tight finances (even if it is $5). I would accept donations but I would expect those donation to be used to help make better plug-ins (like buying another Adobe program or a newer one).

Plugs are made to be free, the pay for making plugs is the enjoyment of others (corny :mellow: but true). For Arpia 2, I think I would pay.

One of the biggest reasons that I use Mechanisto and GraphicConverter is that they are free/shareware tools that I can reasonably afford. My computer- an eBay special- came with over 1000 fonts, PS 5 and 7 and a variety of other tools pre-installed on it (I won it from some graphics company in New York), but I grew up with GraphicConverter and to this day use PS mostly for Glitterato and LunarCell, which do not play nicely with GKON.

I would never dream of charging anyone to read my TC. I would be honored enough that they would actually DL it.

When it is finished and past beta, I do plan to offer a CD- available for the cost of shipping, probably less than a dollar over PayPal- containing the TC files and some optional expansions, specifically for the people on dialup... I remember the horrible process of DLing Garendall and Nova on a 33.3 connection. But that in my opinion is not charging people for the TC.

I agree with donationware. That way you can support a product based on its merit. If it has few bugs, good storylines, and a well developed balance then you can support the group that made it. However, I don't think you can legally or ethically expect someone to shell out money for a reinvention of a game they already paid 30$ for. Just my two cents.

Paying for a TC? Never. Why? Because, money isn't the easiest thing to come by, and who knows if the TC is even good enough to be paid for. I don't want to waste money on something that is possibly not as good as the hype says. And if the TC is shareware, as many have already said, it will be pirated. If it can be downloaded, it will be pirated. I'm sure some low down dirty b******s are trying to pirate Nova right now.

Though, of course, I wouldn't mind getting money for a hobby. But, I still wouldn't have any more reason to work harder than before. Maybe I'd pretend to work harder, but things would still get done at the same pace.

I would definately be willing to pay for a total conversion under these circumstances:

A) A 'trial conversion' (similar to the various EV ones) that allows me to preview the total conversion in its full universe but with various limiting aspects (once again, similar to the various Escape Velocity trial versions).

I deem the total conversion's quality proportional to it's price, hence- Extremely high quality might get more than lower quality.

C) I would definately not be willing to pay more than $20.00 for a total conversion (and most likely I wouldn't pay that, unless it is an extremely good TC). If this TC is godly, like, oh say- something that converts the EV nova to multiplayer through various modifications to the game engine, then yes, I would possibly shell out $20+ and maybe even a small $5 monthly fee for maintenence.

Normally, I would expect a normal TC developer not to charge more than $2-5.00 for their work- I would only pay for a TC if I am forced to (or if it is an extremely good TC, ie Polycon or better ;))

This post has been edited by Instag0 : 09 April 2005 - 02:34 PM

I'm fairly uncomfortable with a lot of the ideas expressed on this thread.

1. Why shouldn't somebody ask for money for their work? And why should they only be allowed to do this if they purchased the tools or developed them themselves? Recording studios use ProTools or Logic or Cubase, which they paid for, but they also use the major scale and the minor scale. The major and minor scales are in the public domain -- does this mean that songwriters and musicians shouldn't be allowed to sell their music?

2. The fact that something can be pirated is not an excuse for doing so. We only have EV, EVO and now EVN because people were willing to pay for shareware rather than just play it for nothing.

3. Why should a TC be less valuable than EVN? Why shouldn't there be a TC which is worth as much as Nova, or twice as much, or four times as much? There are market questions which might mean you wouldn't charge more than PS2 games, but that's about what people will pay, not about intrinsic 'worth'.

4. There isn't an issue about copyright for using ideas that someone came up with. Almost every science-fiction writer has used or referred to the three laws of robotics, but they didn't have to pay Asimov for the privilege.

There are TC developers out there who have put hundreds of dollars into the software to make their works, and hundreds or thousands of hours into their development. Why is it intrinsically wrong for them to recoup some of this?

I don't agree with charging for a TC. Charging money for a TC would, in my opinion, violate the sanctity of the game. Although any TC worth it's salt will have taken at least hundreds of hours of solid development, the fact about that is that TC development is not our means of support. We are not professional game designers and we have other jobs which we use to support ourselves and our families- this is a hobby. Although Photoshop, Lightwave, etc are all very nice the fact is that a TC can be produced without them and if you purchase these tools for the specific use of making a TC then it is your investment in your work. This is a situation much like buying an old classic car, where you can either make a concourse restoration (factory identical to the original car) or you may soup it up and make your car. Either way you spend thousands of dollars- sometimes much more than that. But in either case it is very very difficult to recoup even half of what you've spent on the parts, tools and incalcuable hours of labor. Making a TC- especially a Nova one where you have so many more possibilities (and the end user will expect these and notice them when they're not present IMO)- is so much like making this car. You start with a basic car- it's drivable, even looks good, has a decent engine , the owner even let you have it for a month to make sure that you wanted it before you bought it (Nova)- it's a fine car as it is and you get hours of pleasure driving it, but eventually you think of how cool the car can be. So you ask some questions around, learn about the tools that are available to you to work on your car with and jump in- probably without an idea of what you're realy doing but with enough enthusiasm to counteract that temporaraly. Lots of people get to the end of the enthusiasm stage and then stop, leaving thier partially finished (or worse- mostly stripped out) cars/TCs laying about. But some keep going, having realised that it takes more than enthusiasm to make a really cool car/TC- it takes lots of work. So perhaps by this point you've arrived at the final form conceptually of how you want this to look and feel and realize that the tools you have may not be the best ones for the job, so you go somewhere and drop a couple thousand dollars into new equipment and other things. Eventually, after a long time, the pile of junk in your garage slowly begins to become a really cool car/TC.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Sure, mabey you went out and spent a huge ammount of money on the Good Stuff with which to make your TC. That doesn't mean you pass the costs down to the end user. This is a scenereo for a game that has traditionally not charged for it's modifications. When you start charging people for what you would love to do anyway for free it cheapens what you do and cheapens you. So what if you just shelled out however much Lightwave costs? That doesn't mean that your ships will look good. I've seen pleanty of crappy lightwave/C4D, etc work. So what if you bought PS? That's a powerful tool that takes a long time to learn to use seamlesssly, and there are a lot of people who don't bother to learn before they start throwing thier weight around. I've been guilty of these things even with Mechanisto so I know that it has much less to do with the tools you use versus the talent and work you put into them (though I won't make a claim for the former). It would be great to be paid for what I'm doing for fun. But to reasonably expect to be paid to make a TC you'd have to work on it 8-10 hours a day five days a week, for as long as it took to get done, which I'm sure noone is (tough we've surely all had marathon coding sessions)... Noone is forcing us to make TCs with 1200+ systems, or 600+ whatever landable spobs before bit switching or hundreds of ship classes with thier own individual models. We are doing this by choice ( for the love of the game , something I wish the hockey world would of remembered this past season too) without any expectation going in of reaping any kind of reward. If I recall correctly, even ATMOS has not recouped thier losses from making Nova. How could any ammount charged for a TC even begin to recoup the financial loss there, if that is why you were doing it? Probably only half of regestered Nova users would DL TC's, and probably much fewer if they cost money.
I'm rambling, sorry... I had a strong opinion about this.

rmx256, on Apr 10 2005, 12:45 PM, said:

I don't agree with charging for a TC. Charging money for a TC would, in my opinion, violate the sanctity of the game. Although any TC worth it's salt will have taken at least hundreds of hours of solid development, the fact about that is that TC development is not our means of support. We are not professional game designers and we have other jobs which we use to support ourselves and our families- this is a hobby. Although Photoshop, Lightwave, etc are all very nice the fact is that a TC can be produced without them and if you purchase these tools for the specific use of making a TC then it is your investment in your work. ...
The point I'm trying to make is this: Sure, mabey you went out and spent a huge ammount of money on the Good Stuff with which to make your TC. That doesn't mean you pass the costs down to the end user. This is a scenereo for a game that has traditionally not charged for it's modifications. When you start charging people for what you would love to do anyway for free it cheapens what you do and cheapens you. So what if you just shelled out however much Lightwave costs? That doesn't mean that your ships will look good. I've seen pleanty of crappy lightwave/C4D, etc work. So what if you bought PS? That's a powerful tool that takes a long time to learn to use seamlesssly, and there are a lot of people who don't bother to learn before they start throwing thier weight around. I've been guilty of these things even with Mechanisto so I know that it has much less to do with the tools you use versus the talent and work you put into them (though I won't make a claim for the former). It would be great to be paid for what I'm doing for fun. But to reasonably expect to be paid to make a TC you'd have to work on it 8-10 hours a day five days a week, for as long as it took to get done, which I'm sure noone is (tough we've surely all had marathon coding sessions)... Noone is forcing us to make TCs with 1200+ systems, or 600+ whatever landable spobs before bit switching or hundreds of ship classes with thier own individual models. We are doing this by choice ( for the love of the game , something I wish the hockey world would of remembered this past season too) without any expectation going in of reaping any kind of reward. View Post

Sorry, I can't remember -- have you ever released a TC?

About a year ago I stopped doing 'freebies' for other people. I've found that if you do something as a favour for someone which you would normally get paid for, your work is often treated as of little value. People demand endless revisions and get very shirty if you don't do exactly what they originally had in mind.

I write for a living -- among other things. When I do non-work jobs for people I charge up to $400 per hour for my writing. People pay this because they know that they need writing at that quality. If they don't really care one way or another, they will do their own writing, or get someone cheaper to do it. Generally such a job might take me ten hours, for example to produce an Annual Report for a $20 million turnover company.

Nobody has the right to say that I should work on a job five days a week 8-10 hours a day in order to be paid for it. If my work is valuable to them, they will pay for it on my terms. If it isn't valuable to them, they won't pay that amount on any terms.

I agree that making 1200 systems with 1000 spobs and 800 missions doesn't make a TC good. We've seen loads of big plugins which were dreadful. But if someone were to release a plugin that took EVx into a new space, did things that had never been done before, and generally raised the level of plugins to the next level, AND was a cracking good game that picked up massive support from its own fanbase, I would argue that they should have the right to charge for it if they wanted to

Before the fact reiteration: All views herin are mine and not intended to reflect upon anyone other than myself. I hold other developers inthe highest esteem and am not trying to offend anyone.

It's fair to say that we disagree. My overlong rambling post mostly was to the point that I did not think that it was in the spirit of the game to charge for a TC.

Quote

Nobody has the right to say that I should work on a job five days a week 8-10 hours a day in order to be paid for it. If my work is valuable to them, they will pay for it on my terms. If it isn't valuable to them, they won't pay that amount on any terms.

I have either not stated myself clearly or I was misinterpreted on this topic. The way I feel about it is that, for the vastest magority of us, making plugins and the like is a hobby. I don't feel that one should charge for something that they do as a recreation. It's similar to professional sports: These people get paid late in thier carreers often totally ridiculous ammounts of money because of thier reputation, while early on they work harder, have more fun and get paid substantially less. Late in thier playing carreers, thier failures and mediocrities are glazed over by thier reputation and thier sucesses, while early on they must work much harder to gain the respect that they will be due. From a lifetime of watching professional hockey, I've seen many young players burst into the league with great talent and ability on thier rookie contracts. They do great and impress a lot of people. Thier next contract pays them a lot of money and suddenly production slacks off- they're injured in thier period of time and thier lapsidasy is evident, while in the past they'd be chomping at the bit for a chance to get back out and play.
I just think that charging for something that you want to do anyway is like that- getting paid to play a game that you enjoy. It saps your drive and can bring forth complacency. If we were doing these things and charging for it we should just call it what it is: something totally different. We call these TC's for Nova, but in reality they are just different scenereos for the same engine. We've not been invited to have these be the 'official' scenereos to the engine like ATMOS was, so I' d personally like to leave them in the realm of "something that you do for fun and then let other people see".

I sincerely hope that I've not upset anyone. I am in no way calling the great work by other TC authors crap or unworthy of merit, or even payment, if that is what they choose to do with it. I just disagree with that.