Shareware, ethics and marketiing

Martin Turner

Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

Would you download one and play it?

Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?

How much would be reasonable?

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M A R T I N T U R N E R
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cdrcoyote

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
**Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

Would you download one and play it?

Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?

How much would be reasonable?

**

1)Not really, unless it is way better than current free plugs.

2)Yes.

3)A-Maybe. B-No.

4)Under 10$ maybe.

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Home of the EVula Plug.

Azdara

Martin, I think that part of the understanding of community here has been that all stuff developed by us fans is freeware, on the basis that many people put in the effort to make plugs, simply for the satisfaction of creating something of their own. The only plug that was ever proposed as requiring purchase was NOVA, and that never happened because it became EV3...

Personally, I would never even consider charging for my work. We are all amateurs here, and any proffesionals work on stuff as hobbies. Frankly, I think that if you feel that the effort put into a plug requires payment, then it's too much effort and you shouldn't do it.

I wouldn't pay for a plug unless it was fantastic beyond belief. On the other hand I wouldn't even concieve of charging for my own work. All plug work I do is purely for the satisfaction of creating something and to get my work seen (not quite yet though).

I paid for Nova because of the incredible work it took to make, not just in the scenario, but in the engine and all aspects of the game. A plug is another matter, none that have been made so far have been anywhere near the standard required for sale.

~A~

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"How can I make it go faster?" -Me-

Masamune

I would pay for a plug- but only a true TC, and only somewhere in the neighborhood of $5-$10. While I agree with Azdara's point about the EV community and freeware, I wouldn't mind tipping the creator(s) of a large TC. Just to offset the cost of server space, if nothing else.

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~Charlie
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Jules

I have concidered making a TC for purchase, but in the end for me, its always meant a **** load of extra work to make it PERFECT in every way. With the classic games, it wouldnt have been so bad, seeing as the quality of the plug was determined almost soley by its story line. However, with the NOVA scenario as the base, a LOAD of extra work needs to be done to make the graphics pro standard.

The way I thought of doing it was to release a demo version with only the start of some strings available (like NOVA) and one full string to play so the user gets an idea of the quality. The full version would be available for download for whoever wants to pay, but a password would be required to decrypt the stuffed file. I think it would be kind of neat of Ambrosia sanctioned expansion plugs to the NOVA universe (maybe $5 a whack), but that more than likely wont ever happen :frown: Besides all the facility for this has been left to the community...

So, essentially:

Depends on the quality.
Yes
The option I describe sounds more plausible, but I guess it would have to be the software. To be honest, I would have to REALLY love the game to register it if it were only the read me. EVO bugged us in the software too, but I registered that as I loved the game - it was fully playable without registering.
Not more than $5 for a NOVA plot expansion, and not more than $10/15 for a TC.

ewan

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scapegoatsoup

Masamune's "tipping" reference makes sense. If the author makes an informal request for payment, I'm game, so long as the amount is reasonable and the product is worthy. Anything more, and I'd expect an arrangement that would offer mutual protection for the seller and buyer. Like a business license. Incorporation. Something that would hold both parties accountable for their actions.

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Dr. Trowel

"Donationware" appeals to me -- I'm more likely to play a plug, and to pay for it, if the payment is presented as optional.

For me, the best example of this was the OS 8-9 utility "FinderPop." The author put this out as "Pintware" -- he didn't say that the user was under moral obligation to pay, but rather that if they liked the program they could "buy Turly a pint" by donating $8 to his beer fund. The program wasn't crippled in any substantial way, but if you paid you got access to a built-in joke collection. My gratitude for not feeling guilt-tripped contributed to my willingness to part with my money, and $8 slipped perfectly under my $10 financial pain threshhold.

So my prefs for EV: appx $8 for a TC, no moral obligation, occassional in-game silly nagging (like Hector w/o teeth), and small "free extras" for paying, rather than significant crippling. The plug would have to be really good -- one of yours, for instance.

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Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Quote

Frankly, I think that if you feel that the effort put into a plug requires payment, then it's too much effort and you shouldn't do it.

I agree completely with Azdara. Considering that your plug would neither have its own engine or be officially sanctioned by the makers of the actual game, it would be a tall order for one to put in so much work that he or she felt that payment was due, and then expect people to actually pay for it.

Tipping is completely different- it's just not the same as someone physically or morally obliging you to send him money. And consider: no matter what method you use, you most likely will have problems controlling the distribution of your plug-in: one person who purchased a 'full version' could simply stick it on-line and allow other people to DL it for free. It's not very charitable, but it will almost assuredly happen.

And I believe there may be problems concerning the EVN license and you charging for money. Although I don't remember anything expressly forbidding it, I think that the opinion of a qualified moderator would be in order concerning this situation.

(EDIT): Post Number 200...

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 10-31-2003).)

Entarus

While I would pay for a TC , I can see this getting out of hand pretty quickly with everyone starting to charge for their plugins and lots of crappy stuff being out there that isn't worth your money.

So in the end I'd have to say no.

Entarus,

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Mazca

I'd say that asking for donations if you enjoy a plugin is a cool idea. However, actually crippling a plugin and requiring payment would not make me very happy... It's obviously fair to ask for payment for your work, but we're so used to free plugins here that I doubt it would go down well. Still, it's your choice if you want to risk alienating some (or most) of your possible audience in favour of money.

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seant

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

I think most EV players would be open to this. Agruably when you buy EVN, you are getting both the engine and the game scenario, so it's no stretch to pay for just the engine or just the scenario.

-STH

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Guest_Casual Observer_*

If a shareware plug used any of the Nova scenario graphics or any other resources, it would be a violation of the copyright laws applicable to EV:N.

Bomb

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
**Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

Would you download one and play it?

Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?

How much would be reasonable?

**

1. I am- but only if the developer intended to make that work a professional, bug-free product that either comes up to or surpasses the level of the original game. But on the flip side of the coin, plug-ins are supposed to be a free expansion of the game, and I'd like to see that tradition continue, however unlikely that might be with the increased workload of EVN plug-ins versus the originals.

2. Yes.

3. I'd pay if I liked it and it didn't nag me. If I played through and enjoyed it I'd be the first one to pay for it.

4. Any price below $15 would be reasonable, if and only if the developer (in this situation, you) got the permission of ASW to legally charge for using an engine they developed and owned. And the likeliness of that isn't all that high because from what I've observed, ASW has (rightfully) adopted a policy of "either you do it with our publication or you don't do it at all."

_bomb

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"that'll be 15 cents hippie!"

UE Crusader

Quote

posted by Martin Turner:

Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

In theory I think its legitimate, even though its never been done. I don't know anything about the legalisms of it, though.

Quote

Would you download one and play it?

Yes, I would try it.

Quote

Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?

I would pay if the plug-in were of superior quality. If it had the polish of FH, for example, I would.

Quote

How much would be reasonable?

There are always the cheapstakes who won't want to pay money, but for $10-$15 I think many would be willing.

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Gage_Stryker

You can charge for a plug-in, but only under the following guidelines:

No Nova resources. It would have to be a total TC. The Nova Resources are owned either by ATMOS or Ambrosia (don't know their contracts, so I don't know who owns the intellectual property). If you use any of their stuff, you're stealing. This includes the interface, sounds, graphics, everything. Period. You can't resample, either. Everything has to be completely from scratch.
You explicitly state that your plug-in is being sold as an expansion ONLY, and that a full purchase of Escape Velocity Nova is required.

If you seriously want to make some money, here's a few suggestions:

Deliver quality. You have to be Nova quality or greater in order to compete with it.
Talk to Ambrosia - it worked for ATMOS. But be warned, once you make a commitment to something like that, you'd better be able to deliver.
Resolve any issues about how the payment is divided among your development team well before the release date. Don't have a development team? Then the sad truth is that your plug-in probably is not the caliber to sell.
In the end, unless you make it under the Ambrosia ageis, you won't be able to liscence effectively. You can ask for donations, but you have no way to issue liscence codes and deny users the end product. The only cost effective way to do so for a small developer is to let a software publishing company (...Ambrosia!) do this for you.

That said, I believe that if a plug-in comes along that surpasses the quality of nova...

It will probably be innovative enough to stretch or need revisions to the engine to fully realize it's vision
It will most likely be noticed by Ambrosia, and may even become EV4.

In that case, it's no longer a plug-in. It's a new product. If something of sufficient quality comes up, I believe Ambrosia would be willing to release it under their name. If it's not quality enough to be released under their name, it's probably not quality enough to be shareware.

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Gage Stryker
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Happily jump-proofed since 2001!
" I envy people who have faith in a supreme being. Death usually doesn't scare them." - Vast Deathmaster

Starbridge42

Who is in favour of shareware plugins?

Would you download one and play it?

Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?

How much would be reasonable?

I am not really opposed to the idea but I'm not really in favour of it either
I'd download a plug if it was shareware or not.
No. Nagging software is just a pain. You need to actually make the person want to buy it, but on the other hand you don't want to make it so restrictive that people never get in to it.
Nothing. I don't think people should charge for their plugins. They do it for prestige and not for monatery gain. I have no qualms about people putting requests for donations in the readme or even in game (provided it was discrete and didn't affect gameplay), and I would be happy to donate money if the plugin was of excellent quality (The Empire Trilogy, Frozen Heart, Femme Fetal, etc.). Also if the plugin used ANY Nova Files it would be illegal. And that means ANY file. Any desc or ship or graphic or whatever could very easily be seen as an infringment on the copyright of EV Nova.

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Martin Turner

Mm, interesting.

We did discuss this once before.

Here are my reasons in favour of at least opening the door on shareware plugins:

The effort to make a top-notch plugin is extraordinary. Putting a price on it and paying the price is a way of acknowledging that.
Don't understand the point about legality as long as you don't include any EVN resources in your code (but why would you, as they are in the EVN files) you are not breaching copyright. What you are offering is your story. Also, there would be no need to categorically state that a fully registered copy of EVN was required, since EVN will not run plugins unless it is fully registered.
There may be a considerable investment financially in bringing a plugin to market. I don't see major TCs being made with Strata free or Mechanisto anymore.
I would imagine that $15 would be about the right level for a serious game - way cheaper than any commercial offering but substantial enough to cover the costs of currency exchange (remember, we don't all live in the US).
By offering a product as shareware - but not crippled - you would be committing yourself to a level of quality and support. Clearly no one would pay for your plugin if it was full of spelling errors or bugs. However, once you had received their shareware money, you would be committed to resolving issues or returning their cash.
Don't really agree with the part about a really great plugin requiring a new engine. EVO's engine was virtually the same as EV's, and the new features didn't drastically improve the gameplay. Nova's engine has not yet been fully explored - there are quite a few features which Atmos didn't end up using, such as Chars, and loads which could be taken in different directions.
Making something shareware would be a good way of emphasising copyright. It isn't a great deal of fun to have to explain to someone who has just released their pride-and-joy plugin that they have breached your copyright by using your graphics.
I know that a number of us making plugins are older and relatively well-off. However, I also know that a number of younger plugin makers struggle to pay for the upgrades to things like Photoshop which they need to work on their stuff. Again, as a professional development issue, if you turn up to a future employer and say 'I released a shareware game and it netted $2000 in the first two years', it's very different from turning up and saying 'I released a freeware game and loads of people downloaded but I don't know if any of them actually liked it'.
Ultimately, with my arts background coming to the fore, I have real qualms about saying that artists should work for free. If you believe that your plugin is worth money, it seems to me that you should be allowed (allowed by the community, that is) to charge for it without being looked on as some kind of pariah.

Come on - some responses to my arguments

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M A R T I N T U R N E R
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UncleTwitchy

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
**3) There may be a considerable investment financially in bringing a plugin to market. I don't see major TCs being made with Strata free or Mechanisto anymore.
**

raises hand SFA's shän graphics have all been done in the free Strata 3.0.2 Base (caveat: although I was recently given a copy of the pro version, the majority of the renders were all done in the free version).

In principle, I have to agree entirely with Martin on this. In terms of practicality, I think the notion of Donationware is probably the most feasible form in which this can be implemented; logistically, I will never ask for any money, nor will I accept donations for SFA. However, for my next project I will be more than happy to accept donations.

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mrxak

I might pay for donationware, if it was really, really, really good, and ~massive~.

Even then, I probably wouldn't pay more than $10.

Jules

Quote

Originally posted by UncleTwitchy:
**raises hand SFA's shän graphics have all been done in the free Strata 3.0.2 Base (caveat: although I was recently given a copy of the pro version, the majority of the renders were all done in the free version).

In principle, I have to agree entirely with Martin on this. In terms of practicality, I think the notion of Donationware is probably the most feasible form in which this can be implemented; logistically, I will never ask for any money, nor will I accept donations for SFA. However, for my next project I will be more than happy to accept donations.**

Final Eclipse's graphics are still being done in free versions of Strata (3 copys actually). I am also using meshwork and wings for the ships. FE isnt that well known as Jager and I have barely publicised at all. Were more concerned about getting the plug done and creating a good game than promoting it like mad

However, the only reason they arent being done in Strata Pro is that I dont have the cash to buy it. Maybe if we put donationware on FE I could afford to get Strata Pro... nice dream I suppose! Actually to be honest I would be cheaper getting lightwave... might just do that!

ewan

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Shareware, ethics and marketiing