It isn't - it's an adventure game. This is why:

? The combat is too simple.
No RPG has just two buttons for doing everything.

? The play is linear.
You can't 'go rouge'. People are either hostile or allies, you can't change that status. Although I don't personaly like to use this feature, it should always exist to force the player to remember that 'this is the real world' and that his or her actions matter. Otherwise, it's sort of like a roller-coaster - it might seem thrilling, but it's really totaly safe.

? The characters are unrealistic.
They don't even need to eat! If you are uninjured, you don't have to consume food. And when was the last time you hurt yourself and then ate an apple to effect a cure? The same goes for sleeping, to.

Thus, PoG, while a pretty good adventure game, is NOT an RPG. (PoG != RPG)

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RPG=Role Playing Game

You play the role of an adventurer that is on a mission to save the queen. There is more than one style of RPG, PoG is one kind.

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

Very well, but in the conventional sense, PoG isn't an RPG - it's far to shallow on the role-playing part, as there is no real way to truly do anything but the path that is layed out for you. It's like connect-the-dots.

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Quote

Originally posted by Dana:
**Very well, but in the conventional sense, PoG isn't an RPG - it's far to shallow on the role-playing part, as there is no real way to truly do anything but the path that is layed out for you. It's like connect-the-dots.

**

There are many, many mini-quests that you can do, you can do many things in different order, so on so forth...but it is different than most RPG's, yes.

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

Quote

Originally posted by Dana:
Very well, but in the conventional sense, PoG isn't an RPG - it's far to shallow on the role-playing part, as there is no real way to truly do anything but the path that is layed out for you. It's like connect-the-dots.

So are quite a few RPGs. Pretty much anything that isn't multiplayer is stuck into a "connect the dots" scheme. Sure, there may be a few different ways to get a job done, but in the end the job needs to be done in order to progress. Hmm, kind of like life.

But that still doesn't make PoG any less of a role playing game. You may wish for more interaction or more freedom in your role, but it is still part of the fantasy RPG genre.

Now, I'm not saying that PoG is the be-all end-all of RPG games, nor am I saying that there isn't room for improvement; quite the contrary. But your assertion I disagree with.

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So it's different from other RPGs. So? If every RPG was based along the same lines, with the same rules, and the same ideas, people would eventually start arebellion and hunt down and slay every living RPG. Or something.

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All hail Hikari, Golden Goddess of Light!

Quote

Originally posted by Raistlin Majere:
**So it's different from other RPGs. So? If every RPG was based along the same lines, with the same rules, and the same ideas, people would eventually start arebellion and hunt down and slay every living RPG. Or something.

**

That may be a bit extreme...but what you, dana, are saying is that only because you have to do the mission instead of doing the "bad" mission it isnt an RPG...welll, that is only one other choice really, still would be a connect the dots in a way.

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

Ever heard of non-linearity? Multiple means to multiple ends. Granted, in practice it must be A finite number of beginnings (Often one) to multiple conclusions based on the performance of the player, but it is a very important concept. PoG? It's rather do-or-die, no?

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What is your point? PoG is a game. A FANTASY game, and yes a RPG, even if it's not the RPG as you define it. You just join then start a thread and throw out a theory of yours. So, it's your theory, leave it at that.

Non-linearity, linear, multiple, going rougue, connecting dots....blah, blah. Whatever it boils down to, in PoG...you play a role, yes an adventure role, yes with some finite outcomes...but it's a role..it is fantasy. As for "unrealistic characters", please...many a infinite, non linear etc RPG's have characters that don't exist in real life. So eating and sleeping (healthy things to do anyway) translate to health points...so what. Isn't having a health potion or casting a health spell "unrealistic".

Sounds like you want to throw in a lot of semantics and "stir" something over nothing. I would rather see comments about how to improve PoG with plug-ins rather than discuss what it is or is not. It's kind of like talking about whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. Who cares, eat it or don't.

Hope my Karma doesn't come undone....but I'm done with this thread :eek:

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Quote

Originally posted by MyzDefy:
**Hope my Karma doesn't come undone....but I'm done with this thread:eek:
**

If anything, you deserve at least half a karma point for that in my opinion. Well said! Since when does fantasy equate to reality? A few of the plug-ins now existing and soon to come do have consequences dependant on which course of action the player decides to take.

Perhaps, Dana, you might want to write a better script for a plug-in and give us all a chance to see your version of a better game. Coldstone is not that hard to work with and multiple endings would work just fine. I look forward to playing your game. Building something new is so much more rewarding than tearing something down. ~RD

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My Doctor said I was having too much wine, women, and song - so I gave up singing because 2 out of 3 is not so bad.
The (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/rduck/")Kingdom of Garendall(/url) sectional map is easily printed from gif format pages.
Find those areas you missed the first time around. Have you been everywhere?

True, it is my theory, but I'm holding too it...

Your argument on the unrealism of food & eating being directly connected with HP - there's nothing to suggest that the world of PoG is basically different from our own in that area, so it should behave like ours. If it doesn't, then it should be for a reason. Does the food posses some special property that restores heath? Do people not need to eat regularly because, while looking humanoid, they're actually plant-based and use photosynthesis to get energy, needing food only to replenish minerals lost due to damage? Are they sticking hidden roots in the ground at night to sleep and replenish themselves?

If there is a reason for it, anything can be realistic in the context of fantasy. If there is no reason, then what is realistic is only the limited set of things found in our world - things should behave like they do here unless there is a reason for them to be different. And it should be a good one.

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You are arguing that not eating is unrealistic, but not that you are on a quest to save a town from SEA GIANTS?! It is just a game, okay? If you want it to be more "realistic", make a plug that takes away one HP every minute so you have to eat eventually if you wish, but if you don't plan to improve upon it, don't complain about it.

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

Quote

Originally posted by Dana:
**Your argument on the unrealism of food & eating being directly connected with HP - there's nothing to suggest that the world of PoG is basically different from our own in that area, so it should behave like ours. **

But the world supports this. If you want this added, then you can simply make a plug-in with a timer that requires the player to eat/drink within a specified time limit, else penalties occur.

Quote

If it doesn't, then it should be for a reason. Does the food posses some special property that restores heath? Do people not need to eat regularly because, while looking humanoid, they're actually plant-based and use photosynthesis to get energy, needing food only to replenish minerals lost due to damage? Are they sticking hidden roots in the ground at night to sleep and replenish themselves?

Or it could be assumed that the player does it themself. Do you consider a game like Baldur's Gate to be a RPG? It doesn't have food.

What if a game doesn't have bathroom abilities? I certainly have the need to go to the bathroom in real life, but I don't recall a game giving me this necessity.

The point is that many times there are sacrifices for playability. I personally don't want to have to keep a stock pile of hundreds of food items so that my characters won't starve. They are characters, they can "eat" when they are hungry. Don't make me control it!

Quote

If there is a reason for it, anything can be realistic in the context of fantasy. If there is no reason, then what is realistic is only the limited set of things found in our world - things should behave like they do here unless there is a reason for them to be different. And it should be a good one.

The reason is playability. I consider that a good reason.

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Yes, BG is an RPG, and it dosen't have food. There is a difference between not mentioning something leaving it out of the simulation, and implementing it in a grossly unrealistic manner.
It's the same thing with bathrooms, I have no knowledge of an RPG which requires micromanagement of this detail... (Is The Sims an RPG? )
Brushing over an issue by not showing it at all is forgivable, and in fact essential in many cases. Blurring two things - eating and healing - together, so that both are unrealistic, is not.

The defenders of PoG seem to fall back heavily on the fact that it can be edited through plug-ins.
This is not a truly valid argument, any more than it would be correct for a car company to say:
"It's not a problem that our cars do not have engines, you can buy or build an engine and have it installed."

What comes stock is what counts, add-ons are nice but they don't make a difference in the actual, basic product.
It can be corrected through patches, but the basic design choice was flawed.

As to the realism of Sea-Giants - their very presence suggests that our world is different from PoG's in the nature of it's inhabitants. They require no real explanation, they just exist in that world because they do, just like humans there. That is fundamentally different from unrealistic eating.

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Quote

Originally posted by Dana:
**Brushing over an issue by not showing it at all is forgivable, and in fact essential in many cases. Blurring two things - eating and healing - together, so that both are unrealistic, is not.

The defenders of PoG seem to fall back heavily on the fact that it can be edited through plug-ins.
This is not a truly valid argument, any more than it would be correct for a car company to say:
"It's not a problem that our cars do not have engines, you can buy or build an engine and have it installed."**

You are saying that the problems with PoG are unforgivable. I'm sorry you don't enjoy the game, some of us obviously do.

Your analogy of the car without an engine just doesn't hold up. The game functions as it is - a car without an engine doesn't function.

You have made your points and have not gathered many who support your view. Perhaps it would be best at this point to try some other game?

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My Doctor said I was having too much wine, women, and song - so I gave up singing because 2 out of 3 is not so bad.
The (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/rduck/")Kingdom of Garendall(/url) sectional map is easily printed from gif format pages.
Find those areas you missed the first time around. Have you been everywhere?

Unforgivable to an RPG, perfectly fine as an adventure game.
No, PoG is pretty fun, but it isn't an RPG. Lots of things aren't RPGs but are fun, including PoG. But I nonetheless maintain that it isn't an RPG for the reasons above.

Yes, the car illustration is exaggerated, but a similar principal applies. Perhaps it would have been more apt to make the car in the analogy lack windshield wipers and a rear-view mirror...

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One more time...

RPG still= Role Playing Game

1- It is in fact a "game"
2- You are "playing" the "role" of a knight (conjuror or ranger too)
3- In there is "Role" "Playing" and "Game", thus RPG. You are playing a guy that has morals, thus will not abandon his missions.
4- It is in the class of RPG, end of story. Period. Show is indeed over. Nothing to see here.

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

Okay...I'm jumping back in one last time. Kudo's to Slav, Stark and Ducky for your thoughts. I just want to leave this thread with a few more of my own...then I'm just going to resist the "pricklies" I get when I see this thread here.

A. Let's get a perspective here:

game
Pronunciation: 'gAm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gamen; akin to Old High German gaman amusement
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : PLAY (2) : the equipment for a game b : often derisive or mocking jesting : FUN, SPORT <make game of a nervous player>
2 a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : TACTIC b : an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : RACKET
3 a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other (2) : a division of a larger contest (3) : the number of points necessary to win (4) : points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest (5) : the manner of playing in a contest (6) : the set of rules governing a game (7) : a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game> b plural : organized athletics c (1) : a field of gainful activity : LINE <the newspaper game> (2) : any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics>; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game> (3) : area of expertise : SPECIALTY 3 <comedy is not my game>
4 a (1) : animals under pursuit or taken in hunting; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food (2) : the flesh of game animals b archaic : PLUCK c : a target or object especially of ridicule or attack -- often used in the phrase fair game
synonym see FUN
- gameˇlike /-lIk/ adjective

Point being...it's a GAME. Let's not take it so seriously that a whole thread is devoted to the debate of what "should" and "should not" leave PoG out as a role playing game or not. It's a game...you play a role...end of discussion. If you want that much "realism" in a game...go immerse yourself in a lifetime sport of playing D&D...Eat;, sleep and breathe it.

B. If you don't like the PoG game as and RPG...do something to improve it to your satisfaction and it will become and RPG within the finite limits of your definition and then maybe you'll really have fun OR just enjoy it as it is and leave it alone.

C. I've seen the word "argument" here when none was intended...and have come to the conclusion that the whole thread is a "game" started possibly as some ill conceived "thought provoking" discussion and I've decided I don't like the infinite outcomes.

D. Can a moderater just close this discussion before it gets ugly? Besides...I really need to go to the bathroom and I'm not sure I have enough health points to get there!! :eek:

Done now...really...for sure I am...because I'm going to play PoG, a RPG that I enjoy....even though my mage is just exploring areas whilst awaiting a new plug-in.

: )

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*Applauds at MyzDefy and agrees that a lock might prevent ugliness (although mods know what needs to be locked or not)

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Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordian.
"You're dumb." -Rawzer to whitedevil and whitedevil2

There was one game that included a bathroom, public restroom actually, Leather Goddesses of Phobos designed by Steve Meretzky and published by Infocom in the 1980's. It even had a scratch & sniff card.

Some usual definitions in game development be it paper & pencil or computer are:

Adventure game: Player is represented by a character. Game play is moved along by a story as the player solves puzzles to reach a goal.

RPG: Essentially, the same elements as an adventure game. However, the player character has various statistics for abilities. Experience points and levels are used to show the character's advancement.

What's all the talk about eating? When did a doctor ever tell a sick person, "Don't bother to eat. You don't need to keep up your strength"?

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Insert profound thought
or clever witticism here