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Originally posted by Echoboom:
**I am a uni student...and we get nice ethernet links in the dorms. Bah.

**

As am I, however at home I connect to an ideally 28.8kbit modem pool, the highest rate I have ever gotten is 26.4kbit. shudders

The problem with upgrading the engine to play higher bit-rate sound files is that the engine to play the files also increases as the bit-rate and as we all know, increasing a file-size by 200k on broadband may not seem like much, but for those of us who will not be able to afford $50/month DSL/Cable service, an extra minute has been added to the download.

As for the idea of having two different possible bit-rates, that means the engine would have to have both codecs, again adding additional download time/phone charges. You think that the internet is cheap, it most certainly ain't.

Oh yeah, and I might mention that adding something "simple" like better sound means completely re-writing and exaustively de-bugging a section of code. With Nova already released and accepted by the majority with 8-bit 11kHz sound, there is absolutely compelling reason for the developers to suffer ulcers doing a complete rewrite of a chunk of the engine. And don't kid yourself, modifying an existing completely functional product will give you ulcers.

Now a little bit of engineering/construction/comp sci wisdom: "If it ain't broke, don't f*** with it."

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"If you can't feel the Force, you're not pushing it." -Prof. Li on the "Force"
Got g?
(url="http://"http://www.badastronomy.com/")Real astronomers use kilometers. Hardcore astronomers use centimeters.(/url)

The obvious answer is for ambrosia to release a patch that upgrades the sound to 16 bit quality. You could get it if you want, but if not, then fine. Any windows computer should be able to run any sound in EVN at the moment fine, as long as its 300mhz+. * bit sound is small enough to cause no probs. Methinks you choppy sound people should reinstall or something...

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"Now He Belongs To The Ages"
- Edward Stanton on Lincoln after his death.

No, the choppiness is a common problem. As to Azratax's comment about PC sound cards, from the point of view of a sound engineer, let me infor you that it's infinitely more complicated than that. You may have and installed software package ("driver") that allows running switching (that is to say, switching without user imput based upon various sensors) from internal to external speakers in the same way that there is running switching from speakers to headphones on most speaker sets. However, that hardly means that you are using the optimal setup. To get such a setup requires a large amount of fiddling. Even on my system, where my computer speakers route through a mixing board with my CD, tape deck, keyboard, etc, I still need to do a lot of fiddleing to get the output set. At that point, I can use on-board equilization controls (equilization controls on my mixing board) to get the sound optimized for whatever aplication or music I have coming from my computer.

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Well, check understands what I mean.

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(url="http://"http://www22.brinkster.com/swnova")Star Wars: Nova(/url)
(url="http://"http://forums.evula.com/viewforum.php?f=23")SW:N Forums(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Echoboom:
**
Someone realized what I was saying. Adding support for higher quality sounds would not mean that the Nova sounds would need to be released in higher quality. Here are a few scenarios:

(a) Nova keeps its 8-bit sounds, but with a better sound engine. Plugins can now have better sound; no one notices any problem with the quality of Nova's current in-game sounds. Total download size increase: ~100k, or however much it takes to write in support for 16/32-bit stereo sounds.

( same as above, but ATMOS releases the sounds as a separate download so that the size does not increase drastically. Total download size increase: ~100k for the original game, perhaps another 20MB for the upgraded sounds (guesstimate).**

I fully agree. A game of EV:N's quality should have better sound. The quality of the sound/music makes such a big difference in any game, either subconciously or otherwise. Furthermore, I would guess that any computer that can play EV can surely play 16-bit sound; and if not, simply turn the quality down to 8-bit and don't download the extended sound set.

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Originally posted by kkant:
**I fully agree. A game of EV:N's quality should have better sound. The quality of the sound/music makes such a big difference in any game, either subconciously or otherwise. Furthermore, I would guess that any computer that can play EV can surely play 16-bit sound; and if not, simply turn the quality down to 8-bit and don't download the extended sound set.

**

I don't see the need for better sound. The current sound sounds perfectly fine to me. Besides, sound doesn't travel through space.

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I'm president of the United States and I refuse to eat broccoli! - George H. W. Bush
But the elevator is broken in this building. So I'm gonna have to jump! - (url="http://"http://www.homestarrunner.com")Strong Bad(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/")Lost in Translation(/url)

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Originally posted by froggy:
**I don't see the need for better sound. The current sound sounds perfectly fine to me. Besides, sound doesn't travel through space.

**

ok, i hooked up the new sound system, not just for EVNova. i had been earlier trying to get it hooked up for iTunes. Built-in speakers don't sound that good. But, i thought i'd try them with EVNova, so i doubled my efforts to hook it up. there is no need for better sound with EVNova. it sounds perfectly fine with the built-ins. but, i like a bit more bss when i obliterate my enemies.

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Originally posted by froggy:
I don't see the need for better sound. The current sound sounds perfectly fine to me. Besides, sound doesn't travel through space.

It doesn't sound very good to me--on decent speakers or headphones. Good games have good sound. That is a part of their immersive value. Good sound adds to the atmosphere and character of the game, in addition to the quality.

And sound does travel through space, in EV and in SW.

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I think in general the sound engine is marginal. On windows atleast, it's choppy and it doesnt work well under pressure (ie, large battles or 2x speed). And weapons set to looping sound dont stop making noise when firing stops, and sometimes in normal battles things get a bit odd sound-wise. It would be nice if the sound engine got an update (is the sound system modified from EVO at all?), but i doubt it would happen.
-Az

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Quote

Originally posted by kkant:
**It doesn't sound very good to me--on decent speakers or headphones. Good games have good sound. That is a part of their immersive value. Good sound adds to the atmosphere and character of the game, in addition to the quality.

And sound does travel through space, in EV and in SW.

**

On the speakers built into my iMac, the sound is perfectly fine. I don't know what you're expecting, but I know that the sound is completely acceptable and I don't know how it could be improved. Hey, here's an idea: link to the way oh, say, an explosion should sound (in your opinion). I'll judge it from there.

Edit: And judging whether sound travels through space in the real world by looking at a movie and a video game is silly. Sound does not travel through space. Movies and games don't count.

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**I think in general the sound engine is marginal. On windows atleast, it's choppy and it doesnt work well under pressure (ie, large battles or 2x speed). And weapons set to looping sound dont stop making noise when firing stops, and sometimes in normal battles things get a bit odd sound-wise. It would be nice if the sound engine got an update (is the sound system modified from EVO at all?), but i doubt it would happen.
-Az

**

The problems you are experiencing are problems that seeped in when the game was ported to Windows. On my Mac, none of this occurs. Sometimes the sound gets backed up a bit (especially with railguns firing when I jump out of a system), but that's okay. Take it up with Contraband. Or something.

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I'm president of the United States and I refuse to eat broccoli! - George H. W. Bush
But the elevator is broken in this building. So I'm gonna have to jump! - (url="http://"http://www.homestarrunner.com")Strong Bad(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/")Lost in Translation(/url)

(This message has been edited by froggy (edited 09-12-2003).)

Yeah! Sounds don't travel through space! I demand no sound! And while we're at it, I don't want to hyperjump, cause that's unrealistic. And no Jump-Gates either! And what about rockets? I say if you can have lasers, then you can have something more high tech then rockets. And missiles? Torpedoes? Fah! Missiles need air and torpedoes need water. They're all rockets anyway. Further more, all planets have gravity! And check out Sol. Last time I looked, there were seven planets, and Earth had a moon. What's up with that? And solar systems, I mean, all sol ar systems need a star or two, and there ain't one star in EVN. This game is so completely unrealistic. It's totally trash!

Oh wait...EVN is science- _ fiction_

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Originally posted by Dastal:
**Yeah! Sounds don't travel through space! I demand no sound! And while we're at it, I don't want to hyperjump, cause that's unrealistic. And no Jump-Gates either! And what about rockets? I say if you can have lasers, then you can have something more high tech then rockets. And missiles? Torpedoes? Fah! Missiles need air and torpedoes need water. They're all rockets anyway. Further more, all planets have gravity! And check out Sol. Last time I looked, there were seven planets, and Earth had a moon. What's up with that? And solar systems, I mean, all sol ar systems need a star or two, and there ain't one star in EVN. This game is so completely unrealistic. It's totally trash!

Oh wait...EVN is science- _ fiction_**.

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Originally posted by Dastal:
And while we're at it, I don't want to hyperjump, cause that's unrealistic.

Based on current observations of the universe, it may or may not be possible. The data is inconclusive.

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And what about rockets? I say if you can have lasers, then you can have something more high tech then rockets. And missiles? Torpedoes? Fah! Missiles need air and torpedoes need water. They're all rockets anyway.

Really, apparently you (lucky you) have never heard of a Minuteman Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. Those thing go into orbit, then shed the motor and drop back down on the other side of the planet. Missiles have explosive stuff on the front end. Rockets have other kinds of stuff. And further more, there is more than just rocket power in EV:N.

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Further more, all planets have gravity! And check out Sol. Last time I looked, there were seven planets, and Earth had a moon. What's up with that?

Nine planets, a few too many moons for me to remember, way too many large rocks in the outer reaches, and all the remains of a super-nova. But since F=G(m1*m2)/(R^2), if one is far from the smaller stuff, the magnitudes of the force vectors will be small. Only the big stuff would be on the scale.

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And solar systems, I mean, all sol ar systems need a star or two, and there ain't one star in EVN. This game is so completely unrealistic. It's totally trash!

Actually, EV:N has at least two stars included in the stock scenario. Both are in Polaris space. One is a neutron star, the other is of similar composition to Sol.
As for "solar systems"; the very words solar system imply the volume of space under the influence of the star Sol. For this reason planets found orbiting other stars are referred to as extra-solar planets.

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Oh wait...EVN is science- _ fiction_

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Originally posted by froggy:
On the speakers built into my iMac, the sound is perfectly fine.

Many gamers use better speakers or headphones than the ones built-in to your iMac.

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Originally posted by froggy:
I don't know what you're expecting, but I know that the sound is completely acceptable and I don't know how it could be improved.

Check Echoboom's post at the top of the thread.

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Originally posted by froggy:
And judging whether sound travels through space in the real world by looking at a movie and a video game is silly. Sound does not travel through space. Movies and games don't count.

Gee, and I thought we were talking about a game.

(This message has been edited by kkant (edited 09-13-2003).)

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Originally posted by kkant:
**Gee, and I thought we were talking about a game.

(This message has been edited by kkant (edited 09-13-2003).)**

I said that I wasn't being serious.

As for the speaker thing, better speakers make the sound seem worse? I know my speakers suck, but having better speakers make the game sound worse makes no sense. If you're talking about in comparison to games with more advanced sound, then maybe, but alone, the game should sound better on better speakers.

Could someone please link to a more advanced (you know, like 16-bit or up) explosion so that I could compare? I'm still unsure as to what you mean by better sound.

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I'm president of the United States and I refuse to eat broccoli! - George H. W. Bush
But the elevator is broken in this building. So I'm gonna have to jump! - (url="http://"http://www.homestarrunner.com")Strong Bad(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/")Lost in Translation(/url)

gee, i hope this does not turn into a flamewar.

first, the game has sound becuase anygame would suck if there was no sound.

second, there are diffrences between a rocket, and a torpedo. a torpedo does not use rocket fuel like a rocket does to propel itsself through space. a rocket propels its self by rocket fuel, or another variation of rocket fuel.

third, no hyperspace? no warpgates? unrealaistic? duh. of course its unrealaistic. having lasers in space is unrealalistic. hell, a space ship capable of space combat is unrealalistic. sheilds is unrealalistic. treveling to other star systems is unrealalistic. if it was realalsitic to accual space, very very few people would want to play it. it would be just way to boring.

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Quote

Originally posted by froggy:
As for the speaker thing, better speakers make the sound seem worse? I know my speakers suck, but having better speakers make the game sound worse makes no sense. If you're talking about in comparison to games with more advanced sound, then maybe, but alone, the game should sound better on better speakers.

Not necessarily. There's good sound and there's bad sound. There's good speakers and there's bad speakers. On bad speakers, both good and bad sounds sound bad. On good speakers, good sounds sound good and bad sounds sound bad.

But there's even more to it than that. A game (and a plug-in designer) has to take sound samples and synthesized sound, and mix it all up to produce the final sound output. The bitrate that might be acceptable for a single sound might not be acceptable when mixing a bunch of sounds into one output.

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Originally posted by froggy:
Could someone please link to a more advanced (you know, like 16-bit or up) explosion so that I could compare? I'm still unsure as to what you mean by better sound.

I don't have any on hand. Even if I did, there is a good possibility that you might not hear a difference with an internal computer speaker. One way to hear a difference is to play a CD normally, and then somehow play it again with a lower sample rate and sample size. Maybe by changing your sound output device, or by ripping the music into the computer as an AIFF and re-sampling the AIFF using some sound tool.

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Originally posted by kkant:
**I don't have any on hand. Even if I did, there is a good possibility that you might not hear a difference with an internal computer speaker. One way to hear a difference is to play a CD normally, and then somehow play it again with a lower sample rate and sample size. Maybe by changing your sound output device, or by ripping the music into the computer as an AIFF and re-sampling the AIFF using some sound tool.

**

I still want to hear it.

Still, it's more of a compatibility issue. But if you can get Matt to make a way for it to suppor better sound, maybe have a "upgraded sound" plugin, Id support it. The problem is convincing Matt.

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I'm president of the United States and I refuse to eat broccoli! - George H. W. Bush
But the elevator is broken in this building. So I'm gonna have to jump! - (url="http://"http://www.homestarrunner.com")Strong Bad(/url)
(url="http://"http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/")Lost in Translation(/url)

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Originally posted by froggy:
I still want to hear it.

Do the thing with the CD that I suggested earlier. "Bits" refers to the sample size (16-bit vs 8-bit). "kHz" refers to the sample rate (11 kHz vs 44 kHz).

Sample size affects dynamic range. At the crudest and most basic level, it means you have a very limited range of loudness of sounds. That means your combeeps will be as loud as your explosions, as Echoboom pointed out earlier. Or, in other terms, your quiet string passages will be as loud as your big brass and crash cymbals. Now, on a ridiculously weak speaker like a built-in PC speaker, this doesn't matter too much, because the dynamic range of the speaker itself is quite limited.

Sample rate affects the quality and tone of the sound. The range of human hearing extends from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. A 11 kHz sound file has the ability to encode signals only up to 5.5 kHz. That cuts out a significant portion of the sound. If you ever hear music brickwall-filtered at 5 kHz, you'll see just how bad it is. It's really bad. Even internal PC speakers generally have a wider bandwith than that, so this is an effect you will hear on your iMac's speaker--to a certain extent. You will hear a difference betweeen 11 and 22 kHz. But I would expect that you won't hear much of a difference between 22 and 44 kHz sampling, because 22 kHz sampling cuts out the 10-20 kHz sound frequencies, and in this range I imagine the imac speaker doesn't have much response anyway.

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Originally posted by froggy:
Still, it's more of a compatibility issue. But if you can get Matt to make a way for it to suppor better sound, maybe have a "upgraded sound" plugin, Id support it. The problem is convincing Matt.

Yep. That's the point of this thread. Hopefully someone is reading it. Again, we are asking for the game's engine to support better sound--not necessarily for all the existing EV:N sound data files to be redone. If they are concerned about processing demands on lesser machines, perhaps the user can set the output/mixing quality in the prefs--much like it is done in other games.

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I've found the solution. EVN uses the page file on Windows. When a lot of stuff is happening on the computer, the sound is paged out of RAM, to the disk. This means when the sound is requested, it has to be paged back in, making the sound choppy. The simple solution is A) get more RAM, and B)reload the pilot file.

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"Now He Belongs To The Ages"
- Edward Stanton on Lincoln after his death.