I've been working on drawing a galaxy map for a TC (I presume y'all know which one I mean). So far I like it, but there's one thing that I keep wondering about, and I'd like to hear other's opinions about it.

Let's say you are given the choice between two different maps:

1. A map with an overall regular radial shape - i.e. that of the Galaxy's Edge EV:O TC, only much, much bigger and with a little more inhabited systems. Another possible analogy would a top view of our own galaxy.
-- OR --
2. A more labyrinthine map consisting of highway-like system chains and "random" clusters between them - a bit like Auroran space in EVN, but still a bit different and also much, much bigger. (it's hard to describe, if you wish I'll upload a picture of one of my early sketches)

Keep in mind that the total number of systems will be quite high (well over a thousand, if I can manage it). It will be time-consuming and bothersome to travel, but that's the whole point - there will be a hypergate system that makes interstellar travel much easier, but that also has its limitations and drawbacks (higher cost, limited reach...).
Basically, I'm trying to find the perfect balance between a visually pleasing, challenging (think exploring and navigating) layout, and pure playability (those who've played Galaxy's Edge will probably know what I mean...)

Thoughts, anyone?

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Why not make a spiral galaxy?

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As far as realism, it doesn't matter. You can come up with any explanation you want for why hyperlinks aren't regular. Maybe there's only one hyperlink into system K because hyperlinks can't pass by pulsars, or whatever you want.

For playability, I would pick a radial map. I found the clusters in Auroran space extremely annoying. In fact, I found the clusters in Federation space extremely annoying, the way that all the hyperlinks went through Sol, meaning that you saw Earth about 583,692,743 times more often than you saw any of the planets in dead-end systems like what's-its-name and G-something-or-other. If you're going to make a thousand systems, you should give the player a reasonable chance of ending up in any of them, so that all those extra systems don't end up as worthless, wasted space. That means a more distributed traffic flow instead of a highway-style system.

For visually pleasing, radial again. Inasmuch as little blue and red circles can be visually pleasing, having them arranged in a regular, symmetric way is pleasing. Clusters and highways make a map that looks more like a tainted plate of spaghetti and meatballs.

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Replicant

Quote

Originally posted by General Rak:
Why not make a spiral galaxy?

It's possible of course, but the issue basically remains the same. And in this particular case, the story is mostly limited to "our" arm of the galaxy, so I prefer something that doesn't look too much like a whole galaxy. The circular shape could be a cross-section of that arm, but still, this is one (less relevant) reason why I personally favor the more random design.

Quote

Originally posted by Replicant:
For playability, I would pick a radial map. I found the clusters in Auroran space extremely annoying. In fact, I found the clusters in Federation space extremely annoying, the way that all the hyperlinks went through Sol, (...) If you're going to make a thousand systems, you should give the player a reasonable chance of ending up in any of them, so that all those extra systems don't end up as worthless, wasted space. That means a more distributed traffic flow instead of a highway-style system.

I've uploaded one of my (url="http://"http://home.pi.be/~psdn0983/hyperionproject/project/pics/galaxymapsketch01.gif")initial sketches(/url) (=very incomplete). Eventually, most "major" clusters will connect with all the others in some way - there will be nor real "dead ends." Also, the colonized galaxy will not have the centralized structure of EV - there are no "core" and "outer" worlds in terms of map layout, only in terms of travel time. On the map, an Outback or Protectorate world may be surrounded by several Web worlds. With that kind of world distribution, the repetitiveness of endlessly passing through the same systems shouldn't be too much a problem.
The wasted space argument is a good one though - one of the reasons why I got bored with Galaxy's Edge was the endless series of totally empty systems I had to travel through. In general, I'd say there should be "something" within at least three to five jumps from any given location.
I fully intend to make traditional space travel at least a bit more cumbersome than using the farcaster network, but maybe sheer distance would indeed be enough, without the extra trouble of a very complicated system map...

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Do not adjust your mind - there is a fault in reality.

(This message has been edited by boot (edited 05-10-2003).)

Well, from what you have said I can guess with a high degree of certainty that you are doinga Hyperion plug. So I would suggest linking each system with every system near it, but not having hyperlinks pass stars. Sort of like the idea that it is a gravitationally bound line, and if it tried to pass a star it would be pulled in. This allows for the fact that you could always spin up from any world and head out to the any of the stars near it, sort of like the core of Polaris space, except you should perhaps space it out a bit more. Of course, it also means that the jump lines will be shorter and you will have to make more jumps due to the fact that you can't just go around systems in between, but it gives a great deal of flexibility and also adds that touch of extra time that is what seperates spinships from the farcaster network.

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having over a thousnad systems will need the following to be good:
thousand on landscape pictures
thousands of missions
thousand of trading routes
a lot of goverments
A layout that makes exploration inviting

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A tortured and winding galactic map that makes the player want to scream for mercy and/or commit suicide while standing on their head and praying to a sacrifice-hungry demigod. I'm not sure if this would work with the storyline of your plug, but I've always thought it would be cool to use hypergates to link otherwise unconnected areas of the galaxy. Then you can get into supply/demand stuff too. If there's an interesting part of the galaxy only accessible via the Rubicon Inc. Hypergate 4322 then the fee is going to be outrageous.

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I had a look at your initial sketch, and I like it. It would be good to make some far out places that are harder to reach, but you can make some serious money off of cargo runs to there. It would spice up the game somewhat. I like the idea of a Hypergate taking you to a place where you can only get to by Hypergate, but costs alot of money to use. You could make it in order to get a certain mission, you would have to work up loads of money to go through this hypergate, and get to a planet on the other side.

As everyones on the subject on different galaxy design, did anyone else notice in the 'Femme Fatale' plug for EV:0 that if you went to the far northwest of the map, somewhere near a planet or system called home, there were a line of about 20 jumps going off from the main map, and when you had come back on yourself and looked at your map, it had formed a star shape. That was quite cool. Anybody see this? Or was I imagining it?

TheRedeemer

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I made a spiral galaxy map for EV once, and I think I still have it (though it'd be made up of EV syst resources, it's probably not too big a deal to convert those to EVN).

Unfortunately, it only has 3 sprial arms. Not very realistic.

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Quote

Originally posted by Curufinwe_Fëanor:
**having over a thousnad systems will need the following to be good: <snip>
**

Quantity != quality. I won't make more systems than the scenario requires in order to stay close enough to the universe from the original books (which, unfortunately, is still quite a lot), and the same goes for every other resource. If it turns out the way I want, you'll have plenty to do and see.

Quote

Originally posted by Russell Quintero:
I would suggest linking each system with every system near it, but not having hyperlinks pass stars. Sort of like the idea that it is a gravitationally bound line, and if it tried to pass a star it would be pulled in. (...) Of course, it also means that the jump lines will be shorter and you will have to make more jumps due to the fact that you can't just go around systems in between, but it gives a great deal of flexibility and also adds that touch of extra time that is what seperates spinships from the farcaster network.

The curved "jump lines" would also have inhabited planets in them; I added them mainly for the sake of making exploration a little more exciting - they would give the impression that the player is travelling into a whole new part of space. Also, the kind of structure I've been working on would require less empty systems in order to make space travel "slow" enough.
But yes, maybe your method would be better - having a complicated map may be making things just a little too hard. In any case, I can make the Hawking Drive outfit increase travel time a little, so it may be OK to put less "filler" systems between the inhabited ones.
Thanks, I'll sleep on it for a while.

Quote

Originally posted by TheRedeemer:
did anyone else notice in the 'Femme Fatale' plug for EV:0 that if you went to the far northwest of the map, somewhere near a planet or system called home, there were a line of about 20 jumps going off from the main map, and when you had come back on yourself and looked at your map, it had formed a star shape.

Yeah. I was a bit annoyed after completing that whole trip for nothing, although I can see the irony. There will of course be distant and hard-to-reach places in this galaxy, because they're part of the story - but i don't intend to send the player off into the void just for the sake of keeping him busy, or being able to claim my plugin is the biggest ever. The Frozen Heart map was pretty good, actually - maybe I should go play it again for a while...

As for the hypergates: it's a bit like the underground in London or NY - the basic idea is that you can get to most of the "main" places on foot for free, but for a small fee you'll get there much easier and faster. (the military network is another matter, of course). Anyway, those who have read the novels know what the idea is; the others are strongly encouraged to go read the novels. It's OK, you'll like 'em

Firebird: thanks for the offer, but I don't think that's what I'm looking for; I may as well make it myself

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Do not adjust your mind - there is a fault in reality.

This reminds me of back in the day working on the Mille Terrae project. We had about a thousand systems in that and we managed it by splitting the resources between each person. Each person had a government with a certain number of systems, and you built your systems to fit into a map of the governments boudries. It was good fun, shame it never get released. if anyones got the data file for it I'd love to get a copy.

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Quote

Originally posted by boot:
**Let's say you are given the choice between two different maps:

1. A map with an overall regular radial shape - i.e. that of the Galaxy's Edge EV:O TC, only much, much bigger and with a little more inhabited systems. Another possible analogy would a top view of our own galaxy.
-- OR --
2. A more labyrinthine map consisting of highway-like system chains and "random" clusters between them - a bit like Auroran space in EVN, but still a bit different and also much, much bigger. (it's hard to describe, if you wish I'll upload a picture of one of my early sketches)

Keep in mind that the total number of systems will be quite high (well over a thousand, if I can manage it). It will be time-consuming and bothersome to travel, but that's the whole point - there will be a hypergate system that makes interstellar travel much easier, but that also has its limitations and drawbacks (higher cost, limited reach...).
Basically, I'm trying to find the perfect balance between a visually pleasing, challenging (think exploring and navigating) layout, and pure playability (those who've played Galaxy's Edge will probably know what I mean...)
**

Holy Crap!! Over 1000? you know what you're getting into?!! My TC has a little over 300systems right now, and righting descs for all the planets is one pain in the ass.
...Course every planet i write has a 700-900 description... (Almost the whole space)

I would say be creative and come up with your own idea for a galaxy. Don't follow everyone else, take a new road. Don't try to follow the example of nova. Your sketch looks alright, a new idea, i say go for it.

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Quote

Originally posted by boot:
**Firebird: thanks for the offer, but I don't think that's what I'm looking for; I may as well make it myself:)

**

Yeah, that's okay, I didn't think it'd be of much use to anybody anyway. I might be better off trying to write a program for galaxy generation than to come up with a new one though...

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Quote

Originally posted by Skyfox:
Holy Crap!! Over 1000? you know what you're getting into?!!

I'm beginning to get the idea, yes.

But I'm known for being pretty radical about things - I couldn't live with myself if I didn't hit the afterburner on this project. And I've never been easily intimidated.

Right now I'm splicing some of the suggestions into the original map design - making more connections between star clusters etc. I'm optimistic.

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Quote

Originally posted by boot:
**I'm beginning to get the idea, yes.:)

But I'm known for being pretty radical about things - I couldn't live with myself if I didn't hit the afterburner on this project. And I've never been easily intimidated.
**

Believe me when I say I fully sympathize.

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1000 systems, that's impressive. I've been planning on making a plug that would have something like 500-700, and most of those are empty. Although the map is inside of this system, and the entire thing is pre-hyperdrive(as it is known in the EVN world), so that explains why things are the way they are. I also want to make a whole mess of things that can be done to alter the systems. Like blowing up Jupiter. That (hopefully) causes all the surrounding systems to be devistated, and asteroids get thrown everywhere.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I have yet to find a really good map maker for Nova. The TC map-maker thing doesn't link, Mission computer doesn't have it, and EVONE's map editor is kinda... weird. So making really large maps is very difficult.

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Quote

Originally posted by Meaker VI:
Like blowing up Jupiter. That (hopefully) causes all the surrounding systems to be devistated, and asteroids get thrown everywhere.

Just a note: if you actually do that, please remember that Jupiter is a gas giant. Asteroids wouldn't make much sense, 'cause most of the planet is gaseous. It would be better to alter the background color of the systems around where Jupiter was, making them brighter. What would be WAY cool, is if you had crons set up so the effect propagates outwards slowly.

-Vaumnou

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Quote

Originally posted by Vaumnou:
**Just a note: if you actually do that, please remember that Jupiter is a gas giant. Asteroids wouldn't make much sense, 'cause most of the planet is gaseous. It would be better to alter the background color of the systems around where Jupiter was, making them brighter. What would be WAY cool, is if you had crons set up so the effect propagates outwards slowly.

-Vaumnou

**

1: Jupiter may not be rocky(mostly) but there are parts that could be, and blowing up Jupiter would probably take out it's rocky moons as well.
2: I was intending to do somthing along that line, making the effect spread; only it would have to stop before it got too far, otherwise I'd be making systems till dooms day.

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Quote

Originally posted by Meaker VI:
1000 systems, that's impressive.

I could still end up with "just" 600 or 700; it depends on how many systems I'll need to get the kind of galaxy I want. I'm waiting for Cartographer, or the next EVONE beta to come out - that should make things a little bit easier. I'll copy the whole thing onto graph paper anyway; for constructing a universe that size, every bit of axtra accuracy will help.

Quote

Originally posted by Vaumnou:
Just a note: if you actually do that, please remember that Jupiter is a gas giant. Asteroids wouldn't make much sense, 'cause most of the planet is gaseous.

Even a gas giant normally has a solid core. It'll be very small compared to the planet's overall size, but that's still a pretty big piece of rock.

(url="http://"http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_giant")http://www.wikipedia.../wiki/Gas_giant(/url)

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Quote

Originally posted by boot:
**Even a gas giant normally has a solid core. It'll be very small compared to the planet's overall size, but that's still a pretty big piece of rock.

http://www.wikipedia.../wiki/Gas_giant

**

Is it really rock? I was under the impression that most of the core is just the same gas the atmosphere was made out of, but that far in, it's under such high pressure that it's solid.

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