As you probably know, most larger plugins that are planned never actually get finished. Their creators often lose interest at some stage of development, for the simple reason that they've planned their plugin far too big ever to be able to complete. I remember people stating on their plug-ins' websites that they were going to max out all resources of EV - 1000 planets!
Nobody can come up with even remotely original ideas for 1000 planets. If you look at EV Override you see many, many planets and systems that are only really spacer. The plugin would work just as well without them.
So I've been thinking whether it would not be smarter to do plugins of a more reasonable size. To be more precise, whether a total conversion plug with a mere thirty systems wouldn't be just as fun as one with ten times as much, with the difference that it would actually get completed. I think it might be an interesting challenge to make an very small but still interesting universe. Quality instead of quantity.
I have been thinking about the creation of such a plugin, though it will be a while till I'll actually announce anything specific, if there is anything to be announced.

What do you think of the idea?

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Baron Vladimir Zarkonnen le Errible
(Zarquon)
http://homepage.mac.com/zarkonnen/

Galactic Dissent only has 70 inhabited systems.

Anatole.

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There is a place, where these creatures of phenominal power exist. I went their once, and walked as they did, and studied them. Only then did I understand why we act as we do. - From the, "Guidebook to Humans", Antigan Military pamphlet

Rift has 442 system in the first Universe. I certainly plan to finish the plug.

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(url="http://"http://mywebpages.comcast.net/genea16/Rift.html")Rift Homepage(/url)
(url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/briftwebboards")Rift Webboards(/url)
Apparently, common sense isn't so common...
~Nick

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
**What do you think of the idea?

**

I say, the more plugs, the better. I'm behind you on this one.

--Nathan

Anatole: 70 inhabited systems is still way more than I spoke of. I said 30 systems total, perhaps 20 planets. Do you really need more? Also, I cannot find the plugin you are speaking of. Could you give me a link?

nwa728: To put it frankly: But will they be any good? Can you think of several hundred interesting and original ideas for planets? And I'm glad to hear that it's going to be finished. I was speaking generally when I wrote that most larger plugins never get finished. I know some do get finished.

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Baron Vladimir Zarkonnen le Errible
(Zarquon)
http://homepage.mac.com/zarkonnen/

A plug-in should be as big as it needs to be to tell its story. If it requires a thousand systems and planets, then that is what it should have. If it requires 30 systems and 20 planets, that is the way it should be. (As a side benefit, the smaller number of spobs would allow for every planet to be graphically unique.) The same applies to other resources, too. If three or four types of ship (or even one type) are sufficient for the story the plug has to tell, then that is the way it should be made.

I like exploring large galaxies, so I tend to design that way. But if the plug's story does not depend heavily on discovering previously unknown territory, then most of the systems and planets are superfluous.

As with so many other things, it is a matter of personal preference. Make the plug you want to make and if the result satisfies you, you have been successful.

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Joe Burnette
"I find that humans can be divided into only two meaningful categories: Decent Humans and Sonsofbitches; both types appear to be evenly distributed
among all shapes, colors, sizes, and nationalities." -- Keith Laumer

I see where this is getting to, I've been working on a TC plugin (Explorer 2024, look for it in a week or so) and have almost finished it, but I reworked the entire universe, every ship, and by the time I was getting to the missions I was pretty low on material. Long story short, there are 7 major storylines, and each of them has between 10 and 15 missions. I would have liked to have more, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, right? I admire the ambition in maxing things out, but I sometimes wonder it it is neccesary in some plugins. I mean by the time you dominating you 8th planet in Empire, you get a little bored, am i right? So...download my plug..bye...

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
**As you probably know, most larger plugins that are planned never actually get finished. Their creators often lose interest at some stage of development, for the simple reason that they've planned their plugin far too big ever to be able to complete. I remember people stating on their plug-ins' websites that they were going to max out all resources of EV - 1000 planets!
Nobody can come up with even remotely original ideas for 1000 planets. If you look at EV Override you see many, many planets and systems that are only really spacer. The plugin would work just as well without them.
So I've been thinking whether it would not be smarter to do plugins of a more reasonable size. To be more precise, whether a total conversion plug with a mere thirty systems wouldn't be just as fun as one with ten times as much, with the difference that it would actually get completed. I think it might be an interesting challenge to make an very small but still interesting universe. Quality instead of quantity.
I have been thinking about the creation of such a plugin, though it will be a while till I'll actually announce anything specific, if there is anything to be announced.

What do you think of the idea?

**

I sure hope people are into this idea, 'cause that's where I'm targetted on current and future projects. My resources list for "BSOD" (working title only) has less than twenty systems in bold-face, as well as a similar number of ships.

I, too, enjoy exploring a large galaxy. I also like to take a break and complete a scenario in a couple of nights. I honestly have much difficulty remembering the one planet out of three hundred that will buy ringworms, or which of sixteen similar-sounding outfits gave the best performance, or whether the "Cosmic Antenna" or the "Antenna Cosmic" was the ship with the fast turning ratio but the lousy cargo holds. It is sometimes nice to have fewer choices.

Hey, maybe we need a name for these? Micro-TCs? Maxi-plugs? Novellettes?

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You see a Grue.

I'd like them to say they'd max everything out now. Now that Nova allows like 2000+ systems and spöbs. Hehe, they wouldn't get very far.
I argee, people should spend more time on quality then quantity.

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It's time for a new challenge.
(url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/benedwards/.cv/benedwards/Public/Ares1.2/StarsAreFire%3AC4.sit-binhex.hqx")The Stars Are Fire(/url)-A TC for Ares
...And so the human race reached for the stars, unknowing of the dangers that awaited them...

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
nwa728: To put it frankly: But will they be any good? Can you think of several hundred interesting and original ideas for planets?

I already have ideas for many of the planets that are original and creative, and some systems are uninhabited. But in reality, many planets would probably be backwater uninteresting worlds. You have to blend reality with the fact that its a game. In Rift, you need a large galaxy for the Universe 1 storylines. Between the five factions, Independents, Pirates, Targeters, and other small governments, you need quite a few systems. A bigger galaxy can make a plug-in more immersive. And in reality, whose going to read every single planet description anyway? A lot of conflict in Universe 1 in Rift is territorial. The Alleriens are bent on conquering and regaining some of their lost systems from the early conflicts. The Merkosians want to free oppressed Allerien citizens, but also make their way to Earth to regain their original territory from the 21st-25th centuries. This wouldn't be very interesting if each government was bent on conquering one or two systems. According to your idea(which is good in some cases), each government in Rift would have 2-4 systems. Right now the factions each have from 55-70 systems. When you hear that the government expanded over a large area of space, you can believe it. Not all activity happens on just one planet. Finding hidden shipyards(hint hint) and such is much harder and more challenging with more systems. The catch is however, I realize you just can't have 200 descriptions saying "This is a barren world." or "Its really cold and icy here." You do have to have slightly diverse descriptions. For example, from Rift, Selendrili is a the Merkosian capital, and a world whose shorelines are totally covered with cities. Quessa is an Allerien all ocean world with underwater colonies. Desirenin is a Merkosian world originally settled by a wealthy family who admired architecture and built large, beautiful castles, and whose descendents still do. Many worlds will have a unique identity, but you have to except them some worlds are just barren wastelands with one spaceport and a bar. Basically, what I'm trying to say in this insanely long post, is that its all about balance and whats right for your plug. If you want 2000 systems and its crucial to your storyline, go right ahead. Anyways, I'll just stop typing now, I've made my point.

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(url="http://"http://mywebpages.comcast.net/genea16/Rift.html")Rift Homepage(/url)
(url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/briftwebboards")Rift Webboards(/url)
Apparently, common sense isn't so common...
~Nick

Quote

Originally posted by Commander Arashi:
**
Hey, maybe we need a name for these? Micro-TCs? Maxi-plugs? Novellettes?
**

Blivets? (A blivet is defined as 10 pounds of fecal matter in a 5-pound sack.)

More seriously, how about CPs (Compact Plugs)?

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Joe Burnette
"I find that humans can be divided into only two meaningful categories: Decent Humans and Sonsofbitches; both types appear to be evenly distributed
among all shapes, colors, sizes, and nationalities." -- Keith Laumer

Quote

Originally posted by nwa728:
**Rift has 442 system in the first Universe. I certainly plan to finish the plug.
**

No one who works on a plugin ever plans on not finishing it. Planning to finish a plug and finishing it are two different things entirely. Trust me, I know from experience.

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(url="http://"http://www.wheenit.com/monkey-robot/")Monkey-Robot(/url)

Quality is what matters, not quantity. Say you have 20 planets. If each has an individual story-line attached of a mere 5 missions, that's 100 missions. Then you can have 5-10 "major" storylines of, say, 10-20 missions. That's another 100 missions. And then, say 10 more "generic" missions, makes 210 missions. That's a fair amount of missions for a "small" universe, but it will fit easily, and provide a very "involved" feeling to the plug. The feeling that there are a lot of people in this universe, and a lot of concerns.

It's basically a matter of style. It's fine to have a big universe with only a few major concerns, but a small universe with the same number of concerns will feel "action packed", which is a different style, but also a fun one.

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Sundered Angel ,
The One and Only
Ares Webboard Moderator, and all-around Nice Guy

The problem I have with backwater planets is that people seem to forget that planets are HUGE. Think of the complexity of Earth. Think of the complexity of a single country, of a single city. Many EV planets are less diverse than one small city. They seem to be covered with the same kind of people and the same kind of biome everywhere. See (url="http://"http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1177944")http://everything2.c...node_id=1177944(/url)
That is simply a waste of planet. If there only were twenty planets, each with a description that only fit into a reformatted info window because it was so log and intricate, I for one would surely read them. But I won't read fifty variations of "<Planet> is an island world where you can get excellent lobster that is highly sought-for in many parts of the galaxy." A single solar system is a huge thing, I think conquering one or two of these already makes for rather epic battles.
I like CP as a name for the concept. It's nicely obscure because it's an abbreviation.

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Baron Vladimir Zarkonnen le Errible
(Zarquon) (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/zarkonnen/")http://homepage.mac.com/zarkonnen/(/url)

(WAAAAAH! UBB CODE IS EVIL! I HATE LINKING!)

(This message has been edited by Zarkonnen (edited 03-31-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Mahayana:
No one who works on a plugin ever plans on not finishing it. Planning to finish a plug and finishing it are two different things entirely. Trust me, I know from experience.

True, but after the hundred+ ships and 100s of megs of graphic files and storyline stuff I've made for this plug, I'll be rather displeased if it isn't finished. Anyways, I've already made a TC, so I know what it takes.

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
**The problem I have with backwater planets is that people seem to forget that planets are HUGE. Think of the complexity of Earth. Think of the complexity of a single country, of a single city. Many EV planets are less diverse than one small city. They seem to be covered with the same kind of people and the same kind of biome everywhere. Seehttp://everything2.c...node_id=1177944
That is simply a waste of planet. If there only were twenty planets, each with a description that only fit into a reformatted info window because it was so log and intricate, I for one would surely read them. But I won't read fifty variations of "<Planet> is an island world where you can get excellent lobster that is highly sought-for in many parts of the galaxy." A single solar system is a huge thing, I think conquering one or two of these already makes for rather epic battles.http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/smile.gif **

First of all, think of how adventerous and expanding humanity is. The factions want to expand and own a large territory. Admit it, when you have lightspeed, a planet or solar system doesn't seem so big anymore. The factions could've just sent smalls expeditions to colonize a planet and claim it as theirs. Most people, however, would want to stay on the more civilized planets and leave the colonies alone. The planets wouldn't attract many, so their populations would remain small. True, there is a lot of space out there, but humanity isn't going to all cluster in one corner of the galaxy. If they have they technology, they're going to spread out.
Second of all, about the stereotypical planets, you're right for the most part. The climate patterns and such would cause deserts and ice and oceans and all, but we can't really know what's out there. That's just an educated guess. There could be some things out there beyond our imagination that could cause all forest planets, or water worlds. Besides, what's wrong with stereotypes? I think this is a situation where "It's just a game" should be remembered. It's meant to be fun, not 100% scientifically accurate. Think of how boring Star Wars would be if it was scientifically accurate. And anyways, Rift does have some very non-stereotypical planets. I'll post a planet map of Selendrili sometime soon.

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(url="http://"http://mywebpages.comcast.net/genea16/Rift.html")Rift Homepage(/url)
(url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/briftwebboards")Rift Webboards(/url)
Apparently, common sense isn't so common...
~Nick

I think reducing the number of planets you have to deal with would give you time to pay attention to detail. I'm also pretty sure that habitable planets will always have many different types of landscape, simply because of the temperature gradient between the equator and the poles.
And I can think of several reasons why there are only a few planets settled:
-The plug-in is set in the near future, so there simply hasn't been time
-Because of some quirk of hyperspace, or because of nebulae or whatever, no hyperspace links beyond a small sphere can be found
-Humanity has lost the technology to find new hyperspace links
-There are evil aliens shooting down any ship that tries to break out of the small region of space settled by humanity
And yes, it's just a game, but I think there is some link between logical consistency and quality.

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Baron Vladimir Zarkonnen le Errible
(Zarquon)
http://homepage.mac.com/zarkonnen/

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
-The plug-in is set in the near future, so there simply hasn't been time

Rift starts in 2750.

Quote

-Because of some quirk of hyperspace, or because of nebulae or whatever, no hyperspace links beyond a small sphere can be found
-Humanity has lost the technology to find new hyperspace links
-There are evil aliens shooting down any ship that tries to break out of the small region of space settled by humanity

None of this happens in Rift.

This probably is just a matter of opinion, but at least it's a semi-intelligent discussion .

Quote

Originally posted by Zarkonnen:
**I think reducing the number of planets you have to deal with would give you time to pay attention to detail. I'm also pretty sure that habitable planets will always have many different types of landscape, simply because of the temperature gradient between the equator and the poles.
And I can think of several reasons why there are only a few planets settled:
-The plug-in is set in the near future, so there simply hasn't been time
-Because of some quirk of hyperspace, or because of nebulae or whatever, no hyperspace links beyond a small sphere can be found
-Humanity has lost the technology to find new hyperspace links
-There are evil aliens shooting down any ship that tries to break out of the small region of space settled by humanity
And yes, it's just a game, but I think there is some link between logical consistency and quality.

**

I'm all for the cause of rationality, if not realism. I believe it was Jack Williamson who put the matter most succinctly with a straight-faced, "It was raining on Mongo that morning."

However, there are boundaries within EV that are not easily surmounted. Kudoes to Martin Turner for using so elegantly multiple landing zones on a single world. But at 4 nav targets, you can't even populate a solar system with enough objects, much less place multiple landing pads at various major cities.

I think, personally, the best we can do is to provide interaction with spob, bar, and other resources in the least stereotypical way we can. To make maximum use of visbits, for instance. To introduce language in the bouy message, landing desc, bar desc that make it clear you are seeing just one slice of a possibly much more variegated world. Another useful tool is mission strings, including self-aborting strings -- any mechanism to place additional (and more importantly) dynamic text into each landing.

Back when I was running a pen-and-paper RPG I had probably twenty properly intriguing worlds. Even those were often artifically limited to a small population concentrated in a few major cities (I had the excuse of a near-future setting). Many, many other map locations were "mining camps and fuel depots" described with a sentance at most.

Still, I kept my players happy for almost a month once at those same fuel depots, as politics, a changing economic situation, and colorful local characters gave them something to explore and interact with.

Just my random thoughts.

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You see a Grue.

I would like to go to a quote I just made while I was reading this concerning on the size of a plugin.

"If you aim to high you will end up falling on your back..."

Mostly the biggest and better of the plugins come from the more experianced makers, because "The longer you type the better you get at it" Its all the matter of your patience.

4 nav defaults? Aren't there 20 in Nova?

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"A taco is merely a rigid, deformed tortilla."
- Thomas Castiglione
"There will be MUCH CRUSHING!"
- Pink