I've seen too many good plugs go to vaporware. I see people asking for help making something and they do half of it and then give it up. I think there is a database of experienced developers, but I'm not sure where it is, andit still has its limits. There should be a whole site devited to taking peoples ideas, reviewing them, seeing if they will be finished, and if they will be then telling the person their idea is solid and getting them some help if needed. I think it would help if we, the developers of plugs, concentrated our resources on plugs that would get finished and be good. There are lots of good ideas out there that go to waste, and lots of good people who spend a lot of time on a plug just to have it die (Ever heard of Shatters? Ever heard of Sarcas :)?).
Opinions? Volunteers? HTML Slaves who will set up this whole thing as a big organized site?

------------------
=Spread the Chaos=

Well though I am new to this board, I've been affiliated with EV/EVO since 1996, what i see chiefly is we have alot of people who have ideas, who can write or have a story they want to produce, but prodigiously few who can do graphics, video, audio or sound work. Probably one of the most discouraging things for aspiring developers is that they simpily don't have the skills, or tools, (or even time) to complete their projects. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from my own experience its really frustrating when your ideas sit on the shelf because you aren't able to really "Complete" your plug-in. With the idea I'm throwing around now its really hard to intigrate the existing EVO ships into my scenario, as they simpily don't fit within the scope of the story. This does NOT mean that I can not complete the plug as I have enough skill and time to get by, but it DOES mean that I may not be able to cover all the bases because few people are going to make sprites and 3D models for a plug-in that will make no money... Anyway thats my two cents.

------------------
"I'm sorry Dave, but I'm affraid I can't do that..."

Yes some good plugins never made it. A great example of this would be Xianu plugin. And they seem to have the artists needed to make a good one. I have dreams of making a plugin myself. I have a story I think might be too good for a plugin for this game and might not work out the way I wanted it. My graphic skills are basic copy paste and trimming. And no 3d modeling skills. Was thinking of doing a alan dean forester pip and flinx and universe plugin. Since I will not be using my own story for it. But I can ramble on. And will stop right now. I don't think theirs any free websites anywhere anymore for what your asking. Was ticked off seeing my nbci website getting nuked and right after the wtc attack.

------------------
Life is a dream we will
all wake from one day.

A friend of mine, White Star/Priam, from uEVORPG (www.uevorpg.f2s.com) took the xianu plug and started working on it to finish it (he hadn't been an original developer, but he didn't want it to go to waste.
Then he disappeared.
I haven't seen him at the RPG, or on AIM, and he doesn't respond to emails...no ones heard from him. Oh well, Sarcas sortof did that, but I did see him on #ev3 once or twice since then (but not enough to ask about Shatters).

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=Spread the Chaos=

Yeah, good point. In reality, not that many Override plug-in projects (as opposed to small, sub-500k expansions) have made it to completion (I mean, we've got FF, FH, B5, SW, F-25, FR, RotV/RotUE, and what else? -- compare that to classic EV plug-ins). It might help to have a plug-in help database, but the reality is that the people who lead the project have to be the ones motivated enough to complete the plug-in.

Actually, there used to be a services page on the EV website (as well as info on every ship, outfit and stellar that I'd like to see again), but that disappeared because I don't think it got anywhere.

Also, you have to keep in mind that if you have too many people working on a plug-in project, it's very difficult to get it to all work together. Most good plug-ins have been made by small teams -- often 1-2 people, a developer and a graphics artist.

Of course, these notes don't do anything to help solve the problem. It's not anything that'll go away easily -- the draw of making a plug-in is great, but when you realize how difficult it is to really pull off a big project, you get discouraged. I'd just have to say that plug-ins are great additions to the game of EVO, and that I'd be very thankful and supportive of anyone who makes a good one.

Hopefully I can come up with better tips sometime soon.

------------------
Mike Lee (Firebird)

Quote

Originally posted by Arada Pilot:
(Ever heard of Shatters? Ever heard of Sarcas:)?)

(url="http://"http://home.earthlink.net/~squibix/ev/shatters.html")Yes(/url)! :mad:

Oh, another thing. I had another idea earlier, which was making a sort of scrapyard for things people've given up on, making up a big collection of odds and ends for EV (and this idea can be expanded for general software development or web development, and so on). I actually have a plug-in to add to this pile; I myself was far too ambitious with this project. I intend to create a more realistic project at some point though.

The idea of this scrapyard is that we'll put all these abandoned plug-ins and conceptual things as well (I mean, how many times have we seen posts about plug-in ideas?) in one place for people to forage through for plug-ins -- or even finish some of these pieces of vaporware without having to create a plug-in from scratch.

I'd be willing to create such a "scrapyard" if people see a need for one and would think it a benefit to the EV/O community.

------------------
Mike Lee (Firebird)

Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
**The idea of this scrapyard is that we'll put all these abandoned plug-ins and conceptual things as well (I mean, how many times have we seen posts about plug-in ideas?) in one place for people to forage through for plug-ins -- or even finish some of these pieces of vaporware without having to create a plug-in from scratch.
**

Meowx already has such a thing, called The Orphanage, at (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/evodev")Resource Freighter 3(/url). It's been completely empty since its inception, however.

The idea is a good one, IMO. You better believe that I'd be quite happy to get my hands on a few solid plug-in ideas. The TC I'm working on has stalled at the mission stage and my brain is officially dry, creatively. Having a place to download and paw through some abandoned, half-realized ideas would be a great way to jump-start my creativity.

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Jon Potter
Thank you for your cooperation. Good night.

(This message has been edited by Jon Potter (edited 11-20-2001).)

Quote

Originally posted by Squibix:
Yes!:mad:

yeppers, I wonder what happened to him...
well, perhaps the rest of the team could get back together and finish it? we had a lot done... I still have all the files.

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=Spread the Chaos=
#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net

"...One percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration." Or so Thomas Alva Eddison is quoted as saying. It's been my personal experience that ideas are cheap, projects fairly easy to start, but the time and energy goes up geometrically as one nears completion.

This is from someone who wrote a full-length novel and brought if up to submission-to-publishers stage (an additional 18 months of editing, that). Total commitment, almost four years. Now, a plug needn't take quite that long. (But ask Martin Turner about that some time!)

The problem I see with any kind of pooling of work is that the bulk of the effort is not going to be in the assembling-scraps, starting-a-shipyard, roughing-out-scenarios phase. It's going to be in the complete assembly, tweaking and playtesting, where all the disparate bits are fused into a coherent whole.

That said, I hereby volunteer services for sound and music editing, and possible (Bryce, etc.) landing pictures. I can't promise my interest, but if I DO say "yes" to a project it will be with a firm deadline attached.

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everywhere else, it's --
"Nomuse"

What's all this '#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net'? Everyone is talking about it, and I'm left in the dark....

------------------
Visit my (url="http://"http://www.madman80513.vze.com")Website(/url)
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Ernest Jan Plugge

Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
It might help to have a plug-in help database, but the reality is that the people who lead the project have to be the ones motivated enough to complete the plug-in.

I'd be willing to host something like that. Not just a place for projects to go, but a place where you can bounce ideas around (ie: missions, ship stats, etc).

Quote

Originally posted by Firebird:
Actually, there used to be a services page on the EV website (as well as info on every ship, outfit and stellar that I'd like to see again), but that disappeared because I don't think it got anywhere.

The (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/ev_directory/")EV Directory(/url) was supposed to be a bigger, better version of the Services page. However, its getting a little out of date... that will be fixed soon enough. Mwuhaha...

Anyway, the Ship and Outfit pages have been revived in my (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/")EV Survival Guide.(/url) I'm still working on the missions and stellar information (as always), as well as EVO information. EVN content will come along some time after the game is released.

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(url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")EVula,(/url) your friendly (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")self-promoting(/url) EV & EVO Boards/Addon/Newswire/Chronicles moderator
(url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")EVula.com(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net/")evula.net(/url)
(url="http://"http://pftn.evula.net")Pilot File Trade Network(/url) | (url="http://"http://plugs3.evula.net")Plugs3(/url) | (url="http://"http://saberstudios.evula.net")Saber Studios(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Madman80513:
**What's all this '#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net'? Everyone is talking about it, and I'm left in the dark....

**

download AthenaIRC from the link in my sig, and set it up for irc.ambrosia.net port 6667. connect and join channel #ev3 (theres others but #ev3 is the title channel). You will be scared out of your mind, but slowly will become addicted and realize how incredibly fun it is.

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=Spread the Chaos=
#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net
http://athena.paladinmacs.com

Quote

Originally posted by EVula:
The EV Directory was supposed to be a bigger, better version of the Services page. However, its getting a little out of date... that will be fixed soon enough. Mwuhaha...

please do.
EVula, you've always been there for us...

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=Spread the Chaos=
#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net
http://athena.paladinmacs.com

I think a page devoted to upcoming pages, such as "ev.f2s.com" or whatever it was, highly publicized and with emphasis on supporting players with at least "that sounds like a good plug-in, I'd like to see that released" might not be a half bad idea. A lot of plug-in designers such as myself are basically doing everything with no support, and support would highly increase motivation and chance that the plug-in would be released.
Just an idea.

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- nadir

Here is my plan so far
homepage:
-1. database of developers
Similar to what EVula has, but bigger and better. You got the idea.

-2. Database of in-progress plugs
Pages for all in progress plugs accessed from an index. Anyone can go see the public info and progress logs. These could be, for example, uploaded to a directory called 'site' under the project irectory in #5.

-3. IRC
An IRC chat server... Multiple channels for different subjects (and if they want, people can host project channels, but no unnapproved bots due to bandwidth limitations on a full server).

-4. Web board
A web board...

-5. FTP server
Uses .htaccess to give each project its own private directory. This is an easy way for group project members to share files. No unrelated files.

-6. Downloads page
EV/O/N bibles, TMPL's, etc. Not plugs completed, we probably won't have the space, and that's done here anyway.

-7. Incoplete Archives
Archives of partially completed plugs for others to pock up and finish (a script will show who has signed up for it and add new users to that list when they want one).

-8. Scrapbook
Free graphics/etc., use a similar script to #7 to show who has used them.

-9. Idea Box
Ideas for plugs, instead of being lost on boards. Comments can be posted.

-10. Advice/Info
An information page with advice, quotes, and info for plugin developers.

Any other ideas, post them here.

ANY help is appreciated. Please post here if you are interested in helping.

------------------
=Spread the Chaos=
#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net
http://athena.paladinmacs.com

Quote

Originally posted by Arada Pilot:
**-2. Database of in-progress plugs
Pages for all in progress plugs accessed from an index. Anyone can go see the public info and progress logs. These could be, for example, uploaded to a directory called 'site' under the project irectory in #5.
**

(url="http://"http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com")http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com(/url)

However, I wouldn't mind merging my site into yours.

------------------
- Gavin Dow, upholder of truth, justice, and the American cheese.
(url="http://"http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com")EV Upcoming Plug-Ins Directory(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.nohate.f2s.com")Don't Hate Me(/url) | (url="http://"http://yoshi.zzux.com/spaceport/")The Spaceport Bar(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.sublevel20b.f2s.com/phpBB/")Infinity Forums(/url)

mine will actually have a mini site for tha plug, and it would have the all important progress logs updatable by team members. I would, however, appreciate your help making this... you seem to have the right ideas.

------------------
=Spread the Chaos=
#ev3 on irc.ambrosia.net
http://athena.paladinmacs.com

Quote

Originally posted by Nadir:
**I think a page devoted to upcoming pages, such as "ev.f2s.com" or whatever it was, highly publicized and with emphasis on supporting players with at least "that sounds like a good plug-in, I'd like to see that released" might not be a half bad idea. A lot of plug-in designers such as myself are basically doing everything with no support, and support would highly increase motivation and chance that the plug-in would be released.

**

Hey, whaddaya know?
(url="http://"http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com/")http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com/(/url)

Check it out.

------------------
- Gavin Dow, upholder of truth, justice, and the American cheese.
(url="http://"http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com")EV Upcoming Plug-Ins Directory(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.nohate.f2s.com")Don't Hate Me(/url) | (url="http://"http://yoshi.zzux.com/spaceport/")The Spaceport Bar(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.sublevel20b.f2s.com/phpBB/")Infinity Forums(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Arada Pilot:
**mine will actually have a mini site for tha plug, and it would have the all important progress logs updatable by team members. I would, however, appreciate your help making this... you seem to have the right ideas.
**

Right. So it's official, then? I suppose I'll have to contact everyone with a listed plug. Many of them have sites of their own, we can see about whether they want them to be moved to the directory site itself.

------------------
- Gavin Dow, upholder of truth, justice, and the American cheese.
(url="http://"http://www.escapevelocity.f2s.com")EV Upcoming Plug-Ins Directory(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.nohate.f2s.com")Don't Hate Me(/url) | (url="http://"http://yoshi.zzux.com/spaceport/")The Spaceport Bar(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.sublevel20b.f2s.com/phpBB/")Infinity Forums(/url)